On December 11, at 11 pm Belgian time, we were sent an email from the Berger Kahn Law Corporation, carbon copied to one Gail Zappa. The subject line read:
Cease and Desist Infringements Re: Zappa Family Trust
Attached was a three page pdf document, outlining in fuzzy lawyer-speak how we are blatantly violating ZFT copyrights across the board here at KUR. You can view all three pages here: page one, page two, page three.
You can imagine our excitement — to get noticed by the ZFT!
The Honor! The Honor!
You know what: The Suits are right on all accounts.
To have transcriptions on our website of long-out-of-print magazine interviews with FZ, which took me many late hours to type out and at times translate? Dude!
To present snippets of FZ lyrics on our website which showcase his incredible sense for Conceptual Continuity? What were we thinking!
To have artwork of FZ releases up on our discography section, so that readers would know what their next purchase at Barfko Swill could be? Not done, period!
All kidding aside: we believe the material posted on this website would fall well within the definitions of “fair use” in the event of a lawsuit. However, we simply lack the financial means to fund such a lawsuit.
Can’t afford no shoes. Sigh.
Therefor: behold the new lay-out! It is, we hope, in compliance with the Cease & Desist letter so graciously sent to us by the ZFT.
It is also temporary. We have new plans for KUR. This is not the end, rather it is a new beginning.
Will you be joining us?
what do you need>
email me
:)
the way the ZFT acts does not serve FZ
When the shit hits the fan,
start making shit sandwiches.
seriously though
KUR does a great service by promoting Frank’s music
ZFT should be paying you
not suing you.
Technically,
ZFT owns the rights to FRANK ZAPPA’S name
does this mean you legally cannot print his name in a blog
without being sued???
What a splendid way to treat the people that buy your products.
Fuck ’em. Fuck ’em very much. ZFT, you just lost a customer.
wow. they don’t have anything better to do than threaten the very audience that has paid for their lawyers fees.
the po-jama people are boring me to pieces
yes dwezz, you’re not a cover band, right….
you play all the right notes
and the lawyers chew, oh yeah
they sure do
Funny, i remember when donald trump wanted to copyrights to “you’re fired” the phrase. He went to getting fired himself, and no $$$$$$$
I’m listening to some excellent simian mobile disco and bono must die remixes! Now THAT’s intellectual continuity. Fuck ZPZ, ZFT, and all those assorted condescending bozos.
Does this mean there will be no more friday boots? :-?
It’s very sad that they’re killing the golden goose by alienating their fans by sniffing for royalties. I dont want to even think about the sheer amount of $ the KUR has spent or has caused to be spent on Zappa. Bully me out of Friday Boots will ya? Well I’ll just have to bittorrent the whole catalogue and encourage others to bootleg them out of existence, or at least bankruptcy so that they’ll have to sell away their publishing rights to someone with some sanity and lease the tapes to a company that knows their ass from Joe’s Domage!!!
(screaming obscenities into a pillow) It’s just mindboggling, the sheer arrogance and greed these people incite, I never thought someone outside of television, religion or politics could be so heartless…
So once the boycotts of ZPZ are in full swing and nobody goes to the ZFT charity show, let’s just hope they sell the Roxy reels and not burn them for warmth! Yeah Gail, there’s a reason why Frank told you to get out the business, he knew you were fucking wacked out and would tarnish his good name and skewer his loyal fans. I highly doubted that he wished his tapes would never see the light of day (as she so implied when she said he wanted her to get out of business), he probably had plans for them to be taken to Ryko or somebody else who knows that you can fit 70+ minutes on a disc!!!
Seriously, just sell the copyrights and the whole fucking vault to Warner Brothers, anything and anyone would be better than how she’s conducted business since the Ryko sale.
AR(F)GH, headache, bed…
This is crazy – what’s wrong with a bit of fandom? Sounds like we could do with some sort of mass action here – what do people think to sending Gail e-mails en masse in support of KUR?
KUR is community, music, commitment, openness, quality, colorfulness, with multi-viewed opinions. Not business. No one makes money with it.
KUR is the Best. (Or do I remember well? How is this quote exactly?…)
We have to stick together
What are your plans, Barry ?
The ZFT made a collection, a list of articles USING the authorised names of Frnk Zpp, DwzlZpp, Z*Z, etc. At first I thought its a honour. Maybe they ALL will get a similar letter?
How sad. This is very petty behaviour. How is this going to turn on younger fans to Frank’s music?
For example, I live in the UK – there was 1 ZPZ show here this year, miles away from where I’m situated. So apparently I either spend myself in to a hole to get to the show “they” proclaim as the only worthwhile production – one which has taken over 10 years to arrive – and then wait another year to do the same again.; and god forbid I look at any other site other than zappa.com. Jeez…
Why must Gail shit all over the fans?
You guys have been performing a great service and I thank you for it. I look forward to you new plans being unveiled, I know they’ll be interesting and of course I’ll be joining you – I’m going nowhere, especially not to zappa.com.
I am thrilled to be a part of whatever Barry continues…
I am a fan that DOES NOT think the ZFT is over-stepping their rights in this matter. With what has gone on at this site over the years, I’m surprised only that the letter didn’t come sooner…
Those who believe they’re entitled because of their love for Frank and his Music? Peeeeuuw! FZ was a Capitalist of the first order – a true genius of a “self-made man”. He would most certainly think that he ‘owes’ you nothing… Gail believes that.
Smell the coffe (shit, if you will), Kids.
The bright side is that the ZFT’s copyright of “all things Frank” is limited; he was, after all, a public figure and hence much of what is perceived about him is public domain. KUR can most certainly continue – once they been *Mod-O-fied 1…
So don’t you be *Tarot-fied 2…
1. Ben Watson, “The Negative Dialectics Of Poodle Play”, (New York: St. Martin’s Press, 1993), 373.
2. ibid.
Suck on THAT Berger, Kahn
May I call you Genghis?
For years now I witnessed the bully tactics of GZ/ZFT with increasing disgust as website after website has received their C&D letters. If she/they think that the blank fanbase will go to the only site left standing (blank dot com – I don’t want to get sued!) she/they are kidding themselves. KUR is such an excellent site because it serves the fanbase in ways that blank dot com never did, which is why I became so frequent a visitor (and eventual poster). I’m certain KUR will continue to reveal its excellence in whatever direction it takes.
Yes, Barry, I will be joining you.
I am sure Barry has a grand plan in mind. I am also not so naive as to believe any kind of letter or petition to the ZFT will do much to GZ and the gang. But that’s what I want to do. Instead I think we should spread the word and boycott every new thing the ZFT tries to sell us until they can properly deal with fan sites such as these. I am beside myself with anger. I visit KUR every single day (sometimes multiple times), and I then link to Zappa.com to buy their goods. KUR has done nothing but promote FZ and the ZFT free of charge (to them). I am disgusted by GZ and their lawyers. Someone said earlier that no one outside of TV, politics, or religion should be as greedy and narrow-minded as GZ. Disgusted, I say. DISGUSTED! I need a bigger font. “Won’t somebody kindly tell me, what Gail Zappa’s trying to doo-ooh?! They’re all the same, so sing right along, GZ’s such an….”
Quite a mouthful, Iggy. While I wouldn’t suggest people go out and start bittorrenting the entire catalogue and bootleg them out of existence (depending on where you live, it’s illegal to bittorrent copyrighted material), I do suggest folks start buying their CD’s second hand. That way you can get the satisfaction of listening to some really great music in the knowledge that not a cent you paid for it will be going to they that killed the golden goose…
I disagree with Sofa, ZFT is over-stepping their bounds in this matter, there is definitely a fair use issue at play as well as the fact that the boots are legal (notice how the subtle Sloanspeak referred to the boots as a publishing/composition copyright issue?). I’m not sure how Amerikkkan servers work but why dont you just switch to a Canadian server (the country where you can copy and download copywritten information- READ: the actual albums), that will get you out of the reach of that hag’s slimy tentacles. Look into it, see what the copyright law is in Canada, you’ll be pleasantly surprised.
As for Gail, a boycott may be in order, I remember similar sentiments when she was giving FZ/fan profits to Al “PMRC” Gore, someone has to put a stop for this, 1st they took down the Dinette and now KUR, next’ll be good or globalia… she is unjustified with how she’s handling this. These sites are love letters to her dead husband and his work, fans who pay for her lawyers and the family’s wealth and work tirelessly on tributes above and beyond their ‘consumption’ of his catalogue. They engage in intense criticism, they promoted his music to fans until they were hoarse at a time when Zappa.com couldnt get their ass together (remember when the site was dead for 5 years?).
Come on Gail, these are people who love the music so much that they feel compelled to set-up websites and tirelessly update and perfect them since the 1st site in the early 1990’s. They hunt down rare articles, essays and interviews and transcribe for the sheer thrill and joy Zappa’s music has brought to all our hearts.
DOWNLOAD COMPLETE
Scandinavian countries have some pretty liberal copyright laws also.
GZ/ZFT’s reasoning is quite simple. They can’t take on YouTube or Google with any hope of success, so they go after the small fish instead. Remind you of any schoolyard bullies? And like all bullies, there’s just one word to describe them:
C O W A R D S.
P.S. Barry, given the shape of the outline on the top of the KUR page, you may wish to change Paul Anka to Paul Williams & Elsewhere…
simply put, she Can’t Understand Normal Thought!
Da-a-amn. I stumbled on your site yesterday, and today this happens. Sometimes it’s shitty being a Zappa fan.
Merry f*ckin’ Christmas!
How sad- you’ll probably have to change the name of the website too, since K.U.R. is the name of a recorded work belonging to the ZPT. And we shall have to refer to Gail’s husband as Z___a. Oh, maybe that’s too many letters…
I enjoyed your site throughly, I’m sorry you have to change so much of it. But I don’t want to see you get sued for doing nothing wrong by the wife of the musician you love so much. Dammit.
Watch out, btw…Paul Anka’s lawyers are bad too.
i vist this site daily
i like the interaction with the other fans
sometimes we agree, sometimes we argue
i have never posted any comments on the z.com website
i post here at least once a week
this site does a much better job of alerting fans of new releases
than does z.com
each new release I have purchased i did so because i saw it here 1st.
Now, will you please CEASE and DISIST.
NOW!!!
Kill Ugly Radio is the essential web site for Frank Zappa news, PERIOD. Zappa.com is only good for when the Family Trust is pushing a new object of income, or when good ol’ Dweezel shows up in a magazine! Want news on the actual PERFORMERS of Frank’s music? Go fuck yourself! “You will do as you are told, until the rights to you are sold”, and Gail is no better than any of the producers that Frank warned us about. I was about to go on a huge Barfko-Swill christmas spree, but I think I’d rather give my hard earned cash to people who’ve not only worked for it, but deserve it MORE THAN THAT BLOODSUCKING LEECH GAIL. Barry, I would more than welcome to throw a fistful of American cash at you.
Deep down, I really hope that Dweezel understands this more than his foolish mother, and would step in to fix all of this bullshit.
This sucks! I love this site and visit almost daily. The Friday boots are like food and sex to me, now where am I going to get my audible nutrients. Ahh, the grinch came to KUL. Someone needs to set up an FTP site and keep it a secret for us KUL fans and away from the prying eyes of GZ’s law firm of Dewey, Cheatham, & Howe.
Thanks Gail and Merry f*#^ing Christmas to you too!
When Zappa’s ghost finally figures out how lame his family and its lawyers are, he’ll murder them in their sleep.
Thanks for bringing me down for the holidays Gail.
No matter, I’ll still check out KUR.
Merry Christmas Barry. We’re with you!
One thing came into my mind, looking at the banner: in Hungary the contry had a soviet-type of flag with a communist symbol in the middle. During the revolution in 1956 people cut that out, and the flag-with-the-hole became the symbol of the refolution – of freedom.
The image of Frnk Zpp is not the symbol of any evil – it’s really sad that here it’s the only way of freedom.
*
One more thing: I’ve said it a few times before: the discography modul is something that was (jeezis! That past tense!!!) extremely, very-very-very valuable. With all th different viewpoints, the richness of it – it was always fun to read, it was very informative, etc. Also a really good place to start. I dont think the album titles are copirighted – I wish it was back here.
Graphic designer Cal Schenkel about the cover of „We’re Only In It For (I Don’T Remember What)â€:
„There were a lot of things we had to do legally, but they mostly came from MGM’s paranioa: putting bars over the faces of anybody who was alive. Turning it inside out. They just wouldn’t take the chance†(Mojo Magazine, 1994)
In one of my recents posts (in tempore non suspecto ) I said that this bog is both a post autistic network and a post commercial blog.
I can only repeat this.
Always ready to be helpful in this dark period.
This is ridiculous. For NO PROFIT whatsoever, you provided reference material that ISN’T at zappa.com – but dammit if Gail doesn’t have t-shirts for $40 at her site – and all of it absolutely free.
One of the earliest comments said it best: the ZFT is not serving FZ or preserving his memory. It’s a tragedy that it’s come down to the kind of behavior that made him hate the music business to begin with. While Frank did despise bootleggers, all one has to do is listen to the mediocre track selections on the “You Can’t Do That On Stage Anymore” series (Vol. 2 notwithstanding of course) to understand why the bootlegs circulated.
For some it may very well have been in name of greed and profit, but from own perspective I see it as a source of curiosity for FZ fans. Songs evolve as they are played live, different singers and players bring different approaches to the tracks. And the bootlegs I have come across have all been free, except when I made the mistake of buying ‘Freaks And Motherfuckers’ back in 2003…strange how that officially released boot is the worst-sounding one I’ve come across.
Anyway, publishing out-of-print interviews that allow insight to the creator’s mind is nothing less than a service, and certainly not a financial liability to the Zappa Family Trust. This is legalistic bullying and total horseshit. If they REALLY think this site is a fiscal threat to the Barfko-Swill online catalog they are NUTS.
Intellectually, this site might be a threat since it presents Frank as he was, warts and all – he was human. This is in contrast to the superhuman view DZ has of his daddy – for God’s sake, he’s in a cover band of his father’s music – or the historical revisionism GZ has launched regarding Frank.
Find some solace in this: she won’t live forever.
Alex
Djeezis!
You are one of my daily sites.
Your discography with comments made me decide which postumous albums were worth buying.
Your posts and links made me laugh and expanded my mind.
I’ll stick with you!!
Good luck,
Jeroen
it’s the voice of your concience, Barry : go on !
and thanks billions of times
All about Frank Zappa beeeee World Heritage!
The thing is simple, give your site a new name, shame on ZFT and the old Gail wreck, but it’s America, you can talk about defiler of graves and no one seems to care, but if you have a EUROPEAN Website, only this is a reason for bombard you in thousand pieces. Barry if there is anything i can help you please let me know.
Keep on!
Best Regards
Frank B.
Reading all these posts makes my heart grow three times it’s size. How about you, Barry?
It is extremely sad, how the ZFT acts. I can´t believe that my big musical idol for a long long time, was married with children who call themselves the ZFT now. Family trust. What a laugh.
The only hope I have is, that the late Frank Zappa would disagree or not let this have happen to a fan site. Shame on you ZFT !
If there is anything I can help with KUR, I will – just let me know!
She used to suck Frank, now she sucks others.
We are not angry, we feel sorry for her.
Jeeziz!! I loved this site, especially the boots and insights into other stuff (P.S. Thanks Urbangraffito the info on that rare Tubes track). I am sincerely p-ed off. Spent last night drunk and alone and then I read about KUR bein’ closed down this morn! Merry F-ing Xmas- NART! All I can say is that I hope that some alternative can be arranged. I’ll miss KUR…Thanks to all that brought it to us.
Fuck Gail Zappa and ZFT
I presume, Barry, that I no longer need to draft the letter we discussed the other day? Lol!!!
Thanks for all the support boys and girls. It does indeed make one feel all fuzzy and warm. Keep it coming.
I remember a text from Genesis:
“There’s a fat old lady outside the saloon
Laying out the credit cards she plays Fortune”
I hope she will not win!
FZ didn’t mind tape sharing.
This is the same as tape sharing.
Nobody is losing out on money.
Nobody is making money.
End of subject surely.
This sucks ass big time. Where is the fuckin threat ? Huh ? Tell me, Gail, I’d like to know. Yup.. Fark orf, Gail.
Ow jeeezis. Not another legal team pulling a ‘Prince’!
When are they going to learn that they might have the legal position to sue, it is not in their interest to do so. This is the Internets!
They are really attacking the fans who are spending time and money to promote the FZ love and legacy. They’ve just made some dozens of people dislike the ZFT (more).
Furthermore, I can’t imagine sites like KUR doing any damage to the ZFT’s interests whatsoever. Quite the contrary!
So whatever the next step’ll be, we’re behind you Barry et al!
I remember a few weeks back there was a 72 Wazoo show posted from London. Hearing that and then shortly after seeing that the offical Zappa Wazoo was being released only made me want it even more! I’ve normally tried to understand tha ZFT’s actions as “protecting” Frank’s legacy, but this is really sad and desperate of them.
Matt.
Contrary to many other replies, I think the reaction of the composer/songwriter/bandleader etc whose name we have to avoid in the future would have been exactly similar to the one of his family trust – someone else getting so much attention as KUR – he would have hated it!
As I thoroughly read all three pages of Roper, Bender & Raper’s Cease and Desist Infringement letter – it looks like they are still quite easy on you – did they give you a donut and tell you to stick closer to ZFT oriented social activities?
Thanks all for caring. You’re an outstanding bunch of freaks to have around, and your support is much appreciated. Spread the word!
Oh, and please stop referring to KUR in the past tense though! :|
Bizarre – I think I’ve actually purchased considerably more ZFT Authorised Product(tm) as a result of discovering it’s existence via the medium of KUR than I ever did before I started reading this blog. Do they not understand the power of using the existing community as means to spread the word? They should take a page out of Jonathan Coulton’s book and open everything up, let people create their own stuff based on the works, get a vested interested in it, participate rather than being forced to observe from the outside. You end up with a much more loyal and happy fanbase that way…
Still mate, wherever you’re going with this count me in…always happy to help.
These legal letters chill you to the bone, don’t they? (I’ve gotten one myself) But, in the legal world this is the opening salvo- they’re trying to pootch you out of existence. Send ’em back your own letter. You are allowed to write about a musician’s recordings- they’re called reviews, I read them in the newspaper every day. You are allowed to say a musician’s name, you’re even allowed to wear a t shirt with his face on it. You just can’t sell it. Tell them you don’t. (Maybe they’re stupid and didn’t read this site very thoroughly). I do suppose Friday will have to go back to being a regular day again (sob!). Time for some disclaimers! ZFT would be perceived as being nicer if they just stated what a fan can do or not do. Except at the moment it seems a fan can’t do nothin’.
what do you need>
email me
my appreciation of zappa and all things faintly smelling of zappa was encouraged and helped along by the family of intelligent and informed people using this site right here!..i have been encouraged to send in examples of my own music instead of growing mold in my living room and furthermore encouraged to go out and buy all available legitimately released titles (that is before someone got greedy about the time of the domage release and thereafter).
What exactly is the zft trying to do?…if it is to alienate musically interested people as myself then you are to be commended on doing a ripper job otherwise you are not adding one iota to the universal family of music lovers…….you disappoint me (sad world weary shake of the head!)
A typical “fat-eating” Gail / Moon Action. I believe if Zappa himself is aware of this, he divorce her postumeously.
I am truly saddened by the grasping nature of the Zft. I am a Music Lecturer and musician and I’ve been a truly devoted fan for over twenty years. It’s just absolute bullying.They make enough from the back catalogue , and the (mediocre) Zpz shows >I was at the Manchester one the first time around.Only Napoleon and Steve made it worth going.The apple fell a long way from the tree Dweezil. Frank’s family have NO RIGHT to withold his music and thoughts from the fans.No money’s changing hands here . I play Frank’s music to my students and try to show how (as well as being a musical genius) that he fought very hard to stop censorship of music.That’s what this is.Gail is alienating the very people who have been paying for her existence for all these years.If it’s a question of legitemacy why don’t they release the stuff in the vaults? then we wouldn’t have to share these recordings.It’ stypical that puritanical scum in the US think they own the entire earth. She didn’t write any of it. And if Dweezil loves his dad so much why did he try to auction the Hendrix strat? what a bunch of WANKERS. I will NEVER buy another thing from the Zft. I’m beside myself with rage.No spouse or offspring should ever hold the copyright on music when the artist has died.It’s not theirs.If we all carry on they can’t afford to sue us all.Beat ’em with their own stick!
It’s absolutely indefensible and amoral.I reckon she only ever used him as a fucking mealticket.KUR has only ever done a loving service to the great man’s work.Does she really think He would have wanted us to be denied this whilst being milked for very gradual and inferior posthumous releases they have (eventually) thrown us? He’ll be spinning in his grave.Poor Frank.I’m upset for HIM more than anything -that a bunch of evil grasping harpies should inherit his music and try to keep it from the fans.GAIL HOW DO YOU FUCKING SLEEP AT NIGHT?
No worries. For you who miss KUR the coming period on the concert download service, check also (because there’s already the link to Aafnraa) :
http://concerts.wolfgangsvault.com/
or
http://tela.sugarmegs.org/_asxtela/
Truly pathetic, but not surprising. For years now the ZFT has maintained a substandard website, released several CDs that make one question whether the vault really does contain gems and has continued the legal battles that were a hallmark of FZ’s career. As a music lover who has purchased the entire catalog, (in several formats, I might add) and was fortunate enough to have attended many FZ concerts, I have always felt a disconnect between the music that has had such an impact on my life and the producers of said product. Many, many bands encourage tapers and sharing of their music and they are neither destitute nor unpopular. They just grasp the simple concept of successful marketing in the age of the internet. Unfortunately, the Zappa family always seems to be attacking their own dwindling fan base. Will someone please issue a Cease and Desist order on this behavior? Or will the antics of Bender Roper and Raper continue to overshadow the music of one of the most unusual composers of our time?
Hopefully you will find a way to perservere. Your site has done more to promote FZ’s musical legacy and it’s fanbase than the ZFT seems capable of.
Oh, and Merry Christmas, Gail. You are reviled by millions. Feel the love.
This is/was by far the best site I know of for finding useful FZ info. Gail should occasionally update the ZFT site’s FAQs page instead of spending her time threatening every other source of Zappa-related news. I’d like to hear Dweezil’s take on all of this, but he’s probably afraid mom may sue him, too!
I think some of these comments are a little extreme. If FZ were around today, I’m sure he would be following a similar course of action.
I think it would be best for all concerned if Gail released a bullet point list of what is and is not permissible. At the minute she and her legal team are in danger of throwing the baby out with the bath water and alienating fans in the process.
At the rate Gail is going, there will be ZFT goon squads breaking in in the middle of the night and dragging off any Z related material they find in your home. It’s hers! All hers!
I ‘m with you guys.
“Likely to lead the public to mistakenly believe that the webpage and it’s links are sponsored by or associated with Frank Zappa or his estate”? Pshaw!!!
I don’t think anyone in any way familiar with the perpetually inarticulate use of the English language that the Zappa clan continue to practice and champion, could ever make such a dumb mistake. The ZFT site remains as dull and uninspiring as their moribund posthumous release programme. KUR on the other hand is well written, obviously well loved and has a strong sense of community. Keep on truckin!
Beware everyone, Gail’s gonna be demanding a poodle pogrom, next.
This is my ‘home page’ and shall remain so.
Yes, Barry, I will be joining you.
You’re calling this ‘censorship’? You’re funny, man. Real funny.
I think deep down Gail would like to be fucked, and that’s why she fucks around like that.
ANY TAKERS???
BTW: the ZFT can’t even run a radio station, ever try to listen to the official Zappa Radio? Even that’s a fuck-up! Songs are cut off, dead air, songs start 15 seconds in and stuff. That’s how ZFT treats Frank Zappa’s music.
It’s basically about a clash between two both legal & scientific cultures.
Does innovation needs patents?
– Yes: they’re happening to protect innovators, enabling them to get some money.
– No : innovation leads us to the next generaaion of innovation.
I belong to the second category.
Kill Ugly ZFT
Ted… needs… friday…. boot… arghhh! :-(
LONG POST ALERT!
Censorship this is not, but it IS one more heavy-handed action in a long, long series of heavy-handed actions by a group of people who appear to have absolutely no understanding of the fanbase / audience / consumers that they are dealing with.
As some have already pointed out, by the letter of the law, they may have something of a case. Sure, there were thumbnail pics of the albums been discussed in the ‘music’ section (which contained, for my money, some of the most interesting opinions on Fronk Zippa’s work that I have read – more interesting because they are the thoughts of people that genuinely love this music). But, this could in no way lead to any financial loss to the ZFT – and anyway, if they followed this line of action to this logical conclusion, they would have to go after evry poor sod selling a 2nd hand CD on ebay or Amazon or whatever.
Okay, now for the Friday boots – personally I see this as no more than tape sharing of live recordings. Of very variable quality. I’m afraid that again I cannot see that ZFT will have lost a penny from these recordings in lost sales of any of the official releases. I mean, lets face it they are only of interest to the hardcore Zeppo fan. No-one AT ALL (perhaps I’m mistaken, but I don’t think so) is going to make do with a shaky audience recording of, say, the 1988 tour, when there are a bunch of high quality, sparkly sounding official CDs available wherein you can hear every note in splendiferous stereo. Like the ‘music’ section, these boots can do no more than keep the interest in Zippu’s music alive.
The quotes page – hell, those quotes are all over the net, in TV programs, in magazine articles, EVERYWHERE! The ZFT seem to be happy for these humorous and biting comments to fade away. Why? Zoppo’s personality was a big part of the whole experience. It doesn’t make sense.
The problem is, the ZFT are acting as if this site is ripping them off in some way, but that can not be further from the truth. Every time they decide to put out some ‘product’ (which, with the exceptions of ‘Buffalo’, ‘Trance-fusion’ and, I would guess, the new live ‘Wazoo’ thing, have ben somewhat variable in quality), KUR has been there with links to the ‘Buy me buy me’ site straight away. Free advertising if anything.
It may sound a bit arrogant to say that the Trust should get a clue about the people they are selling to, but this really is the case. Cut down to simple financial terms, keep the customer happy and you’ll make more money out of them. As it is, I’m too pissed off to even thin of buying another thing from them. This is a last straw kind of thing here.
As has been suggested, some kind of petition etc might be a good idea. It won’t help, but it might be worth showing how fed up some people are with their behaviour.
And, lastly, best of luck with what you come up with next Barry. I’ll be sticking around (with shorter posts, honest).
END OF OVERLY-LONG DULL POST
Well im glad i didnt buy zappa/ wazoo for the cheap price of 38 euros, today, when im reading this. Let’s boycot the ZFT ,untill they apoligize for this behavour.
I think the worst point of this is that the people who enjoy this site (I presume) are almost all hard-core fans and will snap up official releases, products etc.
So to attack the most loyal section of the fan-base is not a bright thing to do. And the severity of it is laughable – GZ might receive a bit more sympathy if it was not so draconian – banning quotes from interviews?! Come on, that’s ridiculous.
F**ck off and Go to H*LL , GAIL
oh, and Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, Freaks
long live KUR
Very sad. Whatever direction you go, I will be there.
I will definitely be re-thinking how the ZFT gets my money.
Praise to KUR!
Your welcome Jamez, that rare Tubes track is also available on the compilation, Dawn of The Tubes.
For anyone else who might be interested, the track “Baby, Your Face Is Mutated,” seems oddly topical right now…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlpBa6euxYs
Silly fucks.
Shows you how much Gail thinks of FZ. Do you think she’s getting revenge for all those wimmin he alegedly slept with on tour?
We’ll just keep one step ahead of them, eh?
(I’ve just asked Frank, our IT guy, to change his name legally to something else. I fear that saying his name out loud will cause me to get a ZFT writ or something.)
Quod Erat Demonstramdum. ( what had to be proofed).
QEAD.
I’m with you.
I am a regular KUR reader. I rarely downloaded friday boots (too hard to listen to and if they weren’t then they were still mp3.) The reviews were where it was at for me. You can’t find a good review site, and amazon reviews (maybe they should sue them) are written by extreme fans but often by people who will never get it so theri review may be misleading. It provided an accurate resource for seeing what other zappa freaks thought of new releases.
then it clicked.
read the reviews for the joe’s series. or some of the otehr posthomous releases. a lot of them aren’t that great.
this is the reason for the c&d notice. people won’t buy cd’s that there fellow people are saying suck. These aren’t available on amazon (besides used) so this is one of the few places for a review.
Maybe if no reviews are available, people will buy mediocre products blindly. 32 minute cds, full price? Sure.
Instead of c&ding review sites why not release great material that we all know is in the vault so all the reviews are positive and line your pockets with gold.
Barry,
Confounding and counterproductive. Talk about no good deed goes unpunished! I’ve contacted Gail for her side, but I doubt that I’ll hear back from her, as several communications have gone unanswered.
It’s hard to imagine that Frank would approve of this… Remember when he repurposed “Tell Me You Love Me” as “Don’t Be A Lawyer?”
If ZFT wants to protect Frank’s memory, it seems like they would cultivate and nurture your work. If only there was more benevolence radiating from the UMRK these days.
I’ll break the news to the local fans tonight, 10-midnight Pacific Time. If anyone wants to call in and discuss it, KHUM’s studio line is (707) 786-5486.
Kevin
Zappa’s Grubby Chamber
http://crushallboxes.blogspot.com/
http://khum.com/fsetshow.html
Remember the “BEAT THE BOOTS !” limited edition box set. (1991)
Zappa (sorry, in french): “Je me suis contenté de voler les voleur ah-ah!… Même mauvais enregistrement, même vilaine pochette. c’est juste beaucoup moins cher !”.
That’s we’ll name Conceptual Continuity man !
courage ,-C
Bummer. Gail sucks. They fucked up their website radio, too.
Get well soon!
I have a tattoo of Frank Zappa’s face on my right forearm. Is Gail and her thug lawyers gonna come after me to? I’m so tired of her shit….I have a hard time believing that FZ would be so greedy and insensitive to the fans. Fuck the ZFT! Long Live KUR!
censor[2,transitive verb]
I still think it is censorship:
censor
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): cen·sored; cen·sor·ing \ˈsen(t)-sə-riŋ, ˈsen(t)s-riŋ\
: to examine in order to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable ; also : to suppress or delete as objectionable
Isn’t that what’s being attempted here?
I don’t care what name you give it anyway – it’ s MORALLY WRONG.
I love Frank’s music. I have a right to mention his name and so does KUR.
Anyway I’m with you all the way.
NO 1 ZAPPA FAN here
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v
http://www.bergerkahn.com/attorneys.php/60
He’s the guy who signed the letter, and you can send him a love letter
Sad, sad, sad … Hope you’ll find a way out. It’s such a pleasure to listen to Frank’s music, to listen to old concerts that would never be published, especially when you bought every official release at any price. I’d rather listen to the Mothers of Invention than to the Daughters of Repression.
Hervé
frank’s family was his least successful project.
There’s no way in Hell any of these actions could ever be considered “censorship”. There’s no free speech being supressed. The ZFT owns the music, images, and other trademarks. If they don’t like the way they are being used, they have a right to take legal action.
Joining, of course. Yo da man.
Have to read everything more carefully to say something witty :)
I just discovered KillUglyRadio about 2 1/2 months ago and I am very, very upset to hear about the cease and desist from ZFT. Its shameful and unfortunate the ZFT does not recognize the services’ this site provides to both new and old fans of Frank Zappa. It is obvious that this site is a labour of love for someone who is very dedicated to the works of Frank Zappa and would never want to tarnish the legacy of Frank Zappa’s music. The official F. Zappa website is pale in comparison to KUR. The opportunity to listen to the Friday Boots is a great way to attract new fans and expose the various incarnations of Frank Zappa’s legendarey bands to those of us to young to have experienced his live shows personally. Instead of legal action the ZFT should be working with the sites moderators who could offer advice on issuing live vault material with insightful liner notes and further provide a forum for promoting the aforementioned releases. I am sure many of the sites members would gladly purchase these recordings if commercially available, I know I would. Hope to see the site continue in some form…thanks for all of your hard work.
http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=official28&date=20070328
Interesting eh?
Compare it with J S Bach.
For instance the Christmas Oratorium. http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weihnachtsoratorium
It was not intended as an ” Oratorium”. Bach, unlike Händel in London, never thought about creating something like this. Just 6 succesive cantates, for 6 seperate sundays.
Each sunday a bit.
And those pieces , ” cantates”, were performed by bits & inches. 4/ 5 seperate pieces per mass.
Just ” crap” put together.
If someone puts a product on the open market people have a right to discuss it.Bootlegs and trademarks aside they do not have the right to try to stop people discussing someone or mentioning them by name.Land of the free my arse.We don’t all live under puritan hysteria yet.
# Z-Man Says:
December 14th, 2007 at 5:41 pm
There’s no way in Hell any of these actions could ever be considered “censorshipâ€. There’s no free speech being supressed. The ZFT owns the music, images, and other trademarks. If they don’t like the way they are being used, they have a right to take legal action.
How can you or ZFT not like Barry??? He’s the Mahatmo Gandhi of Belgium!
Gail Zappa is a malignant cunt!
2 words, Fuck ‘Em.
Got screwed on the FZ:OZ cd, paid the money & didn’t get my name on it. The new CDs are nothing but overpriced cash grabs. ZPZ are just another cover band and should be ignored. Will not be buying anymore Zappa. Will download and evaluate all future items.
Gnarly, are you high?
Jeff, you’re an idiot.
@ Z-Man: ISAAC! Long time no see!
WE are now living in a World without any more respect for anything nor anyone.
Gail & Dweezil Zappa seem to be in it for the money.
Just take them away.
FZ’music will stay in my heart, my head and my discothèque forever, no matter wath they try to do.
They are now scratched from my list.
I will email them and boycott their stuff.
Frank is still dead.
Just remember he won’t come back for Christmas.
Have a life.
Truly yours,
“OO”
Only at ZFT could KUR be seen as a bad thing. Clueless.
Another customer lost.
Looking forward to the next project, Barry.
1. ZFT, GZ and ZPZ stinks!
2. KUR is the best blog/site (along with FZ Lyrics) dedicated to Zappa and fans;
3. Barry, You must find the way to continue our mission, enjoying the FZ music and everything conected with his world of Conceptual continuity,
4. Friday boot???
5. I am (and I am not alone) with You!
KUR is my home page :)
Oh, BTW, I forgot to tell you in my earlier post:
I’ve been comin here for 3 or 4 years now. I don’t come very often (that’s what my ex girlfriend used to tell me too, hehe) but EVERY time I do, it’s always a pleasure to read and learn.
Barry, the french guy I am will tell you this, and in french, s’il vous plaît:
Je suis avec toi, quoi qu’il arrive.
PS: Gail..? FARK ORF ! You’ve just lost a regular “buyer”, you silly cunt.
Nice plan, GENIUS. Boycott the ZFT, and never hear anything new that FZ recorded. Smooth move, Ex-Lax.
Hey man..
I ain’t got money enough to make Gail fatter, get it ? Nothing personal here, hope you’ll understand.. I don’t know if you were talking to me, anyway.. But please, could the ZFT hear fans ? And could they stop ripping us off ? Now, THAT, I’d like to see..
Not only is this really sad, it just doesn’t make any sense to me at all. I never visit zappa.com (mainly because it’s such a badly put together site). I get all my FZ info here and I buy the latest ZFT releases after reading about them on here. KUR rekindled my interest in FZ and I check this site every day. If it wasn’t for KUR the ZFT wouldn’t have got any of my hard earned cash in recent years. I’ll pass my thoughts onto the fools at the ZFT but we all know it’s going to fall on deaf ears.
I know I posted already, but I woke up still angry about this. And I am trying to focus my anger into some actions that makes sense, despite the knee-jerk reaction toward GZ, DZ, and ZFT.
I think it really would be good if all of us who post here (and maybe Zippa fans who don’t post here too) could send some sort of formal and organized communication to the ZFT to illustrate this one salient point:
“If the ZFT alienates those who have worked so diligently to preserve and celebrate Fronk’s music then the ZFT will directly feel the impact of their actions in the form of diminished sales”.
In less flowery language:
Here are 1000 of us (pick a #, I am not sure how many really post here and visit here) who are not buying the new Waz*o CD or Z*ppa Plays Zapp* DVD, and that equals a loss of $65,000 in sales for Barfko-Swill. (At $30 and $35 respectively for the 2 releases).
We should let them know that it is THEIR ACTIONS that are losing them money, not the actions of KUR.
Because just like another poster, I will not be giving myself the gift of those 2 releases this holiday. I just can’t bring myself to buy anything from them. If we all feel this way, we should let them know.
BUT…I think it is essential that such a letter/petition be well-written, free of obscenity and sarcasm, and focused on the point “ZFT’s actions = less $$$ for ZFT”. They need to know that they are doing the damage. Just each person letting Gail know how much they would have spent had she been able to treat fans properly might make the point better than any name-calling (which I engaged in, I will admit).
Sorry for the length of this post. I will refrain until it’s time to make another worthwhile comment. My bile is already evident, now I just need someone to brainstorm with about how to get this letter/these letters to the Trust. – Peace
http://www.princefansunited.com/
Gail portends to be a stong believer in Democracy and voting power.
It cannot hurt to let her know how you feel.
I agree with all of the above, but the Roxy DVD
is scheduled for an April 1st, 2008 release date!
(HOT SPOO for KUR!)
If it ever comes out, I’ll download a dvd rip. Except if they put Fucking Great Things on it. Bonus features like there’s no tomorrow, for instance.
Cockroach Phil Says:
“If it ever comes out, I’ll download a dvd rip. Except if they put Fucking Great Things on it. Bonus features like there’s no tomorrow, for instance.”
Trust Me, the packaging on this sucker is so spiffy you’ll want your own copy!!! (shhh, gotta run now..)
I need my Zappa fix! Oh well.
Screw Gail and ZFT, frankly the material they have released since FZ`s death is been mediocre, and I`m being very kind.
One words: torrents, lets put everything FZ out there!
Merry Christmas to Barry and KUR gang.
Any comedian worth his salt will tell you that timing is everything: Wazoo, Trance-Fusion and Dub Room Special (the CD) made it to Barry Towers yesterday morning. That is to say, a month and a day after I ordered them at Barfko Swill. Three cheers for poetic justice. Listening to Wazoo right this moment, I have to say it does indeed kick ass…
KUR is a fantastic website. I hope everything works out and you are able to continue.
@Jake St. Vitus – I certainly agree that some form of petition of behalf of all KUR readers is a good idea which I’d gladly support. I think we’d all have to admit though that imposing restrictions on fan sites via sanctimonious letters isn’t going to stop the hardcore fans snapping up everything the ZFT churn out. The point I’d like to get across is that fan sites like KUR (which Barry must have worked bloody hard on to keep going for no recompense) actually promote FZ and sales for the ZFT. I’m not a hardcore fan but I thoroughly enjoy reading this site and it got me back into FZ in a big way and I’ve sent my cash to the ZFT as a result.
>Thanks all for caring. You’re an outstanding bunch of freaks to have around, and your support is much appreciated. Spread the word!
Oh, and please stop referring to KUR in the past tense though <
Why not change the name of the site to TZFTIUAIWTD for (The ZFT is ugly and it wants to die)? Or Gail is a fat dumb old talentless barking pumpkin? Or living Zappas eat shit and subsist on the IP of genius? Cruelty is a meal best eaten in daddy’s new car.
FZT has always been supply-side economics at its worst. What trickles down to those who support it smells a lot like doggy wee wee which only blinds them temporarily.
I’m a long time fan (since 1974) and a recent devotee to this site, and the forums. Just some thoughts on these issues – outreach to the ZFT would normally be a good idea (pleas, common sense etc.) but in their continuing effort to shut down sites, this would probably prevent them from relenting to any degree (advice of their lawyers). And if we all stop buying off their website, the product will not show up on e-bay. A dilemma……….. And like you, I was very disappointed with the Joe’s stuff and wish I’d seen reviews here first. Very interested to see what you do with the site now.. and offer my full support.
Hi Barry,
I read the letter you received from Berger Kahn Law Corporation.
Now in my mind there is a F*r*nk Z*pp* song title:
“Treacherous Cretins”.
Coraggio, siamo con te Barry.
haha, Roxy DVD, I bet she’s left it lying around for when she really fucks up and needs something to pacify the fans she’s alienated. Then again, that’s an optimistic outlook, it would be cheaper to spread a rumour and a non-official release date to get our minds off of KURs tragedy. KUR forever, long live (on) Zeppo!
How the hell can it be possible for an American lawyer to shut down a site in Belgium??? What does the Belgian law say about this?
This is the critical link on this topic, posted by Magic Fingers a bit ago. It explains a lot.
http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=official28&date=20070328
But a larger explanation is…as the years go by, it becomes harder and harder for ZFT to make enough money to support their lifestyle. 14 years after death, there just isn’t a way to expand Franks’ popularity beyond the hardcore base. “The bucks just aren’t rolling in like they used to.” Ooops, so sue me.
I would also like to help in any way I can. Let me know if I can do anything.
Hey Barry—Sad to hear ‘Mrs. G Zippo’ is on your case, but it IS poetic justice that Wazoo finally arrived.
Turn it up loud and FREAK OUT!
Good luck man and I’m with ya!
It’s a sad sad planet.
Thanks for all the uploads (18 gigabite on my disc), the info, the discussions, the artwork, etc.
I always thought this would happen but not by the Zappa Trust themselfs but by copyrigthorganisations like IFPI or SABAM (BE) who thinks they’re GOD and looking ugly on the side.
Hey Gail why don’y you continue the Can’t do that on stage series or make a complete new series of live and studio material.
And Dweezil, get back on the road with Ahmed and play some good AZ/DZ music. I liked these shows a lot more than the recent ZPZ shows and I got the chance to see you in small clubs. You don’t have to carry Frank heritage by trying to be him. It’s way to heavy. Sean Lennon does not play Lennon plays Lennon with a little Yoko on the side. Just do your own stuff and release the older material.
Thanks thanks thanks for all the ugly friday boots and all keep on the lookout.
See you,
EL
WOW!! crazy shit.
Magic Fingers, P-Rip: right you are. The crux of the biscuit in that article:
Owen Sloane, girls and boys. Owen Sloane, the lawyer who sent us the C&D letter to begin with.
Gail ha sno excuse for this – unless she’s planning to set up her own Friday Boot service.
Whatever happened to tacit approval of the tape-swap loop? This is just the digital age equivalent.
“It’s impossible, in practical effect, to enforce rules against bootlegging,†Sloane said.
Well, I think sharing homemade tapes for free – without profit – is a different issue. But okay, it still is the most problematic point. Although I’d be curious about a lawyer’s opinion about it.
Hey! everytime I post a comment my username ends up on your page. Where are my royalties?!
Honestly it’s a shame Gail can’t seem to get a clue about the difference between protecting intelectual property and being a fucking copyright nazi.
Ah well. At least we still have…
FRANCE!!
Yeah, this letter to cease and desist is, for the most part, pretty silly and a great way for the ZFT to shoot themselves in the foot.
In this letter, they comment on “the widespread use of Frank Zappa’s name and likeness for commercial purposes […]”.
For commercial purposes? That implies that someone is making money. They aren’t, so that accusation is completely baseless. And this is coming from a guy who advertises himself (or at least his law firm does) as a “Super Lawyer”. Maybe Logic 101 is the course he didn’t do too well in. Even if the ZFT wanted that in the CAD letter, he should have known better. What a complete joke.
Next, as has been mentioned before, this site is, if nothing else, FREE ADVERTISEMENT for Frank Zappa and the ZFT. There are links from here to their site in order to facilitate the legal purchase of THEIR product! Yes, there are boots on here. But they are not being sold, and the only people hardcore enough to listed to some mediocre-quality audience tapes of a show are going to buy any worthwhile “official” recording when they become available anyway.
The idea that this site is incurring financial damage to the ZFT is completely baseless. Do they really think that if I had had the choice between an official, well mastered audio or video release and an even decent sounding audience tape that I’d just stick with the bootleg? Hell no! I’d go buy the “good” sounding official release. All these freely shared audience tapes (yes, that means no $ has changed hands and no one is profiting … does that make sense ZFT???) are doing is tiding us over till we can get more wonderful sounding official releases. Freely shared tapes are not a threat. I repeat Gail, freely shared audience tapes are not a threat!
The ZFT has no clue about marketing in today’s “very open” web-centric world (note: I kinda work in this field). This site is mostly a service to them. Especially since Zappa.com is such an incredibly lame site that is not even often updated. For example, the ZPZ DVD was pulled from the site shortly after being released. Why? I assume it was sold out. But if so, why completely pull it? Why not show the product, say it’s sold out, show an expected return date and offer pre-orders. Duh! More shooting themselves in the foot. Lack of information is NOT good information.
They also don’t seem to understand distribution of product. They’ve released several products in the last years that have only been available on their site. Several of these I’ve never purchased because when you factor in the ridiculous shipping via Barfko-Swill and the exorbitant prices they want for a single CD, I simply choose not to buy them. If I could get them at my local record shop or even on iTunes, I’d probably have purchased them by now. There’s no way they would have trouble getting distribution on Zappa product…as evidenced by the wide release of Trans-Fusion, etc.
The ZFT also doesn’t seem to really know what the fans want. If they did, the Roxy DVD would have been out years ago (with an extended Roxy CD!), along with the KCET show, a DVD and more CDs of the ’88 tour and the Joe’s Domage or whatever that crap was (I heard it at a friends house) would never have seen the light of day. Frank made that mistake himself with Playground Psychotics, which should have been a single CD instead of a double with 50% filler nonsense.
While I’m not a fan, I think it was really cool what Pearl Jam did some years back. They widely released a shitload of live shows on CD in cheap, plain brown envelopes for a low price. Now if the ZFT would just do something like that. Us fans would EAT THAT UP! And they’d be making the $ they want.
By their actions, they are to making it difficult for people to even run a fan-site. I know of NO other music act pursuing such ridiculousness. In fact, most musical acts support it. One of my other favorite music artists even visits their main fan site, posts in the forums occasionally and has no problem that the lyrics to their songs and covers to their albums are displayed on the site. Why? Because it’s an honor to them that so many people are enjoying what they do and it really is FREE advertising, enticing more people to buy more product! And like that site, no one who isn’t a complete idiot would mistake this site, KUR, for the “official” Zappa site. What’s sad is this site does a better job than the official one in many respects. And therein probably lies the “real” threat. This site simply exemplifies some of their ineptness in the realm of the internet and internet marketing.
Summary: While there probably were a couple copyright infringements here on this site, the ZFT is overstepping their bounds, shooting themselves in the foot, and showing the entire fan-base that they simply “don’t get it”. I’d like to believe I’m mistaken, but there are so many things “wrong” with how the ZFT operates, it just makes you wonder…
Indeed, Balint, that is precisely my point. If it is impossible to enforce rules against bootleggers (and none of us here, I suggest, condone people making money by bootlegging; quite the opposite. Shaft ’em I say), then what exactly can be done about sharing homemade tapes for free….? Answers on a (legal) postcard please.
As some may know, I had my own ZFT C&D experience and just threw in the towel. I applaud KUR for ‘moving the project forward’.
Good luck Barry, Sharleena et al.
Oh, and btw, They Might Be Giants is another group that allows you to download official copies of almost all their live shows from their website (all shows since they started this service anyway). The technology to set something like this up in this day and age is so basic and inexpensive, if the ZFT is sooo threatened by bootlegs, why not just set something like this up? Sure, where do you start in a catalog of shows as big as FZs….well, you gotta start somewhere. Just start! But no, us Zappa fans just can’t be so lucky. Just more facts showing that the ZFT just “doesn’t get it”.
John Healy! Your site is warmly remembered!
(I love Jack Johnson – he also allows trading audience- and radio recordings.)
I have, at times, tried to defend Gail and the ZFT against (what I felt were) arbitrary and capricious attacks. THIS shit is very, very troubling. They have taken my enthusiastic optimism toward their efforts and dumped a big SHIT on it.
I could not have cared less who else they went after, as long as they left KUR alone. This little online community is a PERFECT promotion of FZ and his work as well as a pleasant way of spending a few minutes every couple of days.
Gail can eat my shit.
A quick message to Kevpod. Clearly some of us are in the wrong hemisphere to check in with you tonight, but please let us know if you do get some, er, I believe its called “input” these days, on your show. And thanks for giving KUR some airtime.
And again, thank you so much to all of you who have offered help and support. This is one amazing community.
Remember the 100% Zappa project? It was good. It was official and authorised. Today I’ve just received a letter from the organiser – I gave her an idea who to invite next time. The answer was:
“It is unlikely that we’ll EVER make a program connected with (“our client’s name here”) again, with all the problems with (“our client’s wife’s name here”). “
Hm…
“A quick message to Kevpod. Clearly some of us are in the wrong hemisphere to check in with you tonight, but please let us know if you do get some, er, I believe its called “input†these days, on your show. And thanks for giving KUR some airtime.”
Hi Magic Fingers,
KHUM streams, so you’ll be able to hear the show online beginning at 10 p.m. Pacific.
I have written Gail asking for some friendly comment. It’s doubtful that she’ll respond – she never has, even though I’ve dropped her notes about things on the show from time to time. Tony Magee of Lagunitas Brewery told me she was easy to reach that way, but it’s been fruitless for me.
Kevin
Thanks Kevin, but I suspect 10pm Pacific time is sometime in the middle of the night where I am, and even Barry allows me to sleep occasionally….
Hope all goes well.
Okeedoke.
We’ll be taping, so if a discussion of any substantive value should occur I’ll make the audio available somehow.
I do believe we shall survive this.
K
I do believe I agree with you.
This is the dumbest thing I’ve read in years: “I ain’t got money enough to make Gail fatter, get it ?” Twit.
You people are really making too big a deal about this. You’ve got to understand that business is tough, and businessmen have to be careful about potential threats to their business, especially if they’re a small company selling stuff on their own without the help of a major corporation. The ZFT could just give up and sell everything to Warner Bros., but they go through the time and effort to put together quality releases on their own. All this talk about boycotting the Zappas is ludicrous. So what if they want to keep money flowing in order to provide stability and funds for whatever cool discs they’ve got cooking up? They deserve the money they get. Which is better, Zappa’s family being screwed by a dinky fan website like this, or fun releases that would never see the light of day in the hands of clueless media giants who think that everybody loooovves 50 Cent?
Belittle this site as “dinky,” but it is the central resource for countless Frank fans.
this site was not a threat to the zft’s profits
this site has actively promoted new zft releases
and has done so much more effectively than z***a.com
I am horrified. I will not ever buy anything from ZFT again. Neither will I bother to go to Zappa Plays Zappa again. The woman has gone too far. What is next? Barry, let me know if there is any way I can help.
Now.
Raise your hand if you didn’t see this coming.
Can’t wait to see what you have in store for us Barry.
We buy everything the ZFT puts out. We go to all of the ZPZ shows that we can. The ZFT can in no way release a concert every week. Oh, wait. Yes they can. Robert Fripp kinda already does that.
I’m sorry, where’s all of the heavily requested CD’s? Or, say, the Roxy DVD?
I wish they would sell the whole kaboodle to someone who will actually release stuff regularly. Other bands release every show. FLAC, have you heard of it?
We all knew this would happen. But really, they’re sitting on so much. What a waste, and a slap in the face to fans.
I will be here for whatever is next.
I’m along for the ride! You have done a terrific service with this site – and I have purchased many Zappa-related products because of it. Courage with the transition.
debk….If you think that a crappy fan-site is worth boycotting and avoiding hearing some great music, you’re high on dope.
The only reason any of you idiots would boycott the ZFT is because you’re liars who’ve never actually bought any of his records because you’re greedy pigs who think that everything is too fuckin’ expensive if it doesn’t go in your mouth (well, I mean, food. You’re probably too cheap for male prostitute-cock), and you expect any decent music to be handed to you. Everything on the radio sucks and bootleg recordings make your ears bleed. You want some great music, buy the fuckin records.
What’s even more ludicrous are the dicks saying “I will download every new album instead of buying it” – if you download official shit without paying for it, FUUUUUUCK YOOOOOOOU.
I’ll be with KUR, Barry & the band, always. KUR has been of company, help, fun and even inspiration for other web endeavours. I’m kind of shocked, to put it mildly.
The “New” Mothers ~ “we’re only in it for the money”
I have paid a very large chunk of money to buy my FZ collection, I’m sure I have contributed part of the money to pay for Gail’s lawyer, I am very sorry!
thank you for all your hard work and faithful service in times past, “you” are bigger fans of FZ than ZFT – you did this all for the love of the music!!!
If any of the money I spent on Z albums over the years went to paying for Gail’s lawyer, I AM FUCKING PROUD!
GAIL DIDN’T WRITE THE MUSIC
DWEEZ DIDN’T WRITE THE MUSIC
FUCK
THE
BOZOS
ok
there has been a lot of shit hitting the fan lately
so
here is a link to a vid on youtube which i have never seen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAOVcGpfscA&feature=related
needless to say the vid is of the big “Z”
cut it
paste it
watch it
we can still have fun right?
Well . . . I know when I’m licked . . . all over . . . Okay, baby: BEND OVER AND SPREAD ‘EM! Here comes my . . . BULLET!!
z-man needs to go back to the corner. stop making an ass of yourself. go home.
This just in… (play Frank’s teletype “journalism” jingle here)…
Gail Zappa was kind enough to respond to my inquiry with a lengthy and reasoned e-mail message. I’ll read it in its entirety on my show tonight.
I have a request to all who adore Frank. Can we put down the heat for a bit? I know it feels good to be angry, but – for Frank – let’s try and use our brains on this one and relate to Mrs. Z as a human.
We’re going to survive this, and later on, we might not feel so great about the angry shit we said.
I’m not taking “sides” or whatever. I just don’t think we should say anything we wouldn’t say in front of Frank.
Kevin
I’ve got a constructive solution for the ZFT if they want to get rid of bootlegs circulating the internet:
Put up the bootlegs (or official live tapes if they exists) on z.com and charge a small fee, say up to 15$ via visa, and let everybody download in flac or mp3.
No cover, no pressing of cd’s, just files. Effortless, cheap and profitable!
But seeing the amateurish way that website (and indeed the entire ZFT) is being run I would not expect that ever to happen.
“Everybody weep”
–Frank Zappa on Stanley Siegel Show – 1981 interview
Hello,
I have been very moved by the comments here. I think it is atrocious what gail and the ZFT are doing, specifically with this site. There are other problems, like the lack of releases, and the teases of the Roxy DVD which will probably never come out..
i am a musician who would be BEYOND thrilled if there was a resource like Killuglyradio.com to help inform peopple of my music,,, beyond what the official site is saying. absolutely thrilled.
I have left a few comments on the frank zappa and dweezil zappa myspace. i really think that dweezil,,,, since he is a relatively young person in this new millenium,,, ,willl understand that this website is ONLY a positive thing that results in more people hearing FRank and more people spending money on frank..
I LOVE the friday boots. I listen whenver i can. but the audio quality is so bad that I will just go put on an officially released zappa product which i paid my money for… but having those boots is so important for people who want to gain an understanding of zappa as a human being/musician who was flawed in a human way and even a musician. i have loved to hear some of the boots,,, and hear a mistake,.,, or something that would never be officially released. as a young musician it is sooo inspirational and motivational to hear a zappa band making a mistake.. and sadly this is the only place i know of offering bootlegs (i have the whole beat the boots series)
anyway,, i am with you guys all the way. and if anyone reading lives in los angeles, check out my band. i was born the same day as Frank ,,, and feel a very strong bond with him. lordjeff.net myspace.com/jeffhalen
Ken Hoover spelled it all out.
Will the ZFT generate as much press as Prince?
Is that what this is all about?
hope yer still reading this thread, quoted from elsewhere:
[quote=”balint”][quote=”edgewaterinn”] They cannot stand by while people abuse copyright, fan site or not. If they did, what would stop Warner Brothers or Rykodisc or Glide Dental Floss from abusing the likeness of FZ? [/quote]
The difference – as I wrote it down a few times – is simple: Warner Brothers IS [b]business[/b], Rykodisk IS business. I’m really curious: IS Kil Ugly Radio business? What do you think? If “yes”, in what ways?…
And further: from now on there will be NO magazines that could write a review becuse the name of FZ is prohibited? (see details above) No one can think that seriously. On the ZPZ page you’ll find tons of reviews mentioning FZ’s name, Dweezils name. So what? Is it “crime”? No. This is normal – this is review, this is a kind of a FREE AD for them. Just like Kill Ugly Radio. They are on the same side.[/quote]
Maybe you’ve already thought this through and tried it but I wonder how much [b]licensing[/b] certain marks of copyrighted material of FZ in a digital online format might cost. Y’know to advertise for the fzt in the homegrown outfit. Some deal where a fansite can show how many click-thru’s to bfswill he gets and a reciprocal workup is made between advertiser and producer . . .
sounds like the fut-chum for that corner
To be quite honest, this site is really the best way for me to keep up with what’s going on with Zappa related recordings, including products sold by the ZFT and I’m sure I’m not the only one. Nice move Gail Zappa.
YO, they’re his family. They deserve the money more than some greedy label like Warners or Rykodisc.
Fuck.
How dare anyone try to suppress KUR. To have it come from the ZFT is just too ironic for words. If anything, you should be suing THEM for indirect royalties, from all the folks that were directed to new releases via your site. If anybody thinks they can halt downloading of live recordings with a C&D order, they need their bloody head examined – it’s 2007, not 1984.
I’m reminded of what Nietzsche’s sister did to his writing after he died – using it to promote the very thing he tried to warn the world about … this is a less dire version, but every bit as sickening. FZ told her to get out of the business – it’s way past time she took his advice. Their site is annoying & their web-radio presentation is bordering on pathetic. Little wonder she wants to shut you down: you’re doin a much better job than she is at making FZ’s music available (compare the sheer volume of the Friday Boots with YCDTOSA). Talk about biting the hand that feeds you – yeah, let’s threaten to sue someone that’s a hardcore fan because they dare to display thumbnails of album art, put up MP3’s of shows not available anywhere, or actually QUOTE the sacred Zappa without paying for the privilege. How very very nasty.
With you all the way, mes ami. Gail has yet again shown a truly petty spirit towards those who provide her with income – they’re called fans.
I WAS going to get Trance-Fusion, Wazoo & possibly also the ZPZ DVD … but this was the last straw: they just lost a customer. I’ve been listening to Zappa since I was 5; I just got a chronic case of Boycott Flu. Maybe if the ZFT shows more sanity & less spite, it’ll go away. Listen carefully, Gail – this is the sound of my wallet closing: SNAP.
Sincere thanks to “Z-Man” for his last post. Lovely. Now we can all see exactly how mature & intelligent you really are. Parse this if you can: I DID buy the records & as of now I AM boycotting – has your head exploded yet?
Yeah, who dares to try and stop ZFT from losing money?!? What are you, retarded? Everyone who has chosen to boycott the ZFT because of this has an IQ lower than plastic. QUIT YER FUCKIN’ BITCHIN’. What you morons don’t realize is that when ZFT releases something new, you’ll be whining that you won’t be able to hear it because you’re too busy refusing to buy from them…eventually you’ll HAVE to come around because the TRUE FANS aren’t going along with this “boycott” crap. If you think any new releases will be able to download, FAT CHANCE! You’ll have to pay for the good stuff and then what will your sorry asses do now that you’ve ruined your petty boycott?
“I’M BOYCOTTING ZFT!” HAAAAAAHAAAAHAAAA!!!! MORON!!!!
GOOD! BOYCOTT! THEN WE’LL HAVE LESS MORONS LISTENING TO GREAT MUSIC! SHITHEAD!
Boycotts are bullshit.
Fuck the FZT if they can’t get the joke. Frank’s dead! Long live the ONE NOTE!
Anybody seen my severance package?
>I’m not taking “sides†or whatever. I just don’t think we should say anything we wouldn’t say in front of Frank.<
You mean like Frank you’re such an asshole? The man believed in voting. Give me a break. If I remember correctly, you could say anything in front of Frank except put that sausage back in your pants and play the harmonica son.
Just came into my mind – Roll Over Frank Zappa – sad to think that so many are making money from the gift Frank left us – I for one would be glad if my music would be shared after I’m gone – keep up the good work and Many thanks for sharing so much good music until now!
Dear Z-Man,
Bite me.
Love, Hank Peters
Kevin says:
Hm, that sounds interesting! Can you possibly share it here? It seems to be very promising, a kind of a “conversation-like” thing – and that is important. I’m curious!!!
She said. He said. They said. We said. The fact that we’re all here at KUR and not there (Obdew’l X dot com) speaks volumes doesn’t it?
After listening to Zappa’s Grubby Chamber, it became quite obvious to me how “The Corporate Trust” views us: not as loving fans to be cherished, but either as a group of consumers to be fleeced at their whim, or as a bunch of racketeers with our own private agendas. GZ’s own words make it clear. She is an employee, nay, CEO of Zappa Incorporated. It’s time for us to wake up and smell the coffee. What FZ stood for when he was alive, and what Zappa Incorporated stands for are completely incompatible. Zappa’s true legacy is to be found in all the music and musicians that he inspired and influenced in his lifetime. All one has to do is listen to know this is true. GZ can speak of the vault all she likes. I am through being jerked about by the likes of them. There’s so much great music in world: Zappa is the beginning, not the end. Just as I am certain KUR is not at it’s end, just the beginning.
Ah, litigation never seemed to anything new with the Zappas. No?
Does everyone remember when FZ went on the air to encourage his fans to get out their cassette recorders to record the Mercury pressings of the Lather album because Warner Bros. kept litigating every time he was close to releasing his music?
Strange how tables have turned.
ZFT = Warner Bros.
KUR = ?
Yes, I just read it on the show. When I get home I’ll post it to Crush All Boxes http://crushallboxes.blogspot.com/
Gail has a case. Take a deep breath and consider what it would be like if you were in her shoes, having to shepherd Frank’s work in today’s rapidly changing world. Would you have a different perspective? I think any honest person would have to say yes.
Wow. I was more right about this than I originally thought. Someone comparing ZFT to Warner Brothers? LOL…what a dope!
urbangraffito has the IQ of a sledgehammer.
Frank protected his work. I well remember John Smothers physically breaking apart cassette tapes with his mighty hands. He’d spot a red light on in the audience on someone’s recorder, then confiscate the tape and bust it into pieces.
Z-Man: self-appointed arbiter of intelligence and opinion on the internet. Let us all bow down in awe of his intellectual brilliance. I’m sure there’s a convenient porn site near by for you to masturbate to while the rest of us carry on a constructive dialogue.
I’ve been following this little drama – it’s sad and typical. There must be reasons for what ZFT does; I don’t understand but I try not to second guess.
I take some solace in the fact that a composer’s true legacy seems to require an eternity to stabilize. I think it’s what Frank’s fans do now, not what the ZFT does, that will define how Zappa is remembered in, say, a hundred years. I wish I could be around to see how that works out.
Meanwhile, more recently, I’ve come to rely on KUR for FZ news. Thank you all. As an example I listened to the Hungarian radio broadcasts of Frank’s orchestra pieces conducted by Adam Fischer. I was blown away. They clearly displayed a lot of hard work, talent and sensitive musical interpretation. I thought to myself “This should be released on disc.” I would never have known about them except for KUR.
The music raised my hopes. But the quote from the producer of that concert inBalint’s post ) dashed them again. Sigh.
(P.S. I remember that the same John Smothers, who was in the audience at the Barbican LSO concert, made his own recording on a portable tape recorder. No kidding.)
On ne peu en vouloir de trop à la Famille Zappa pour ce sursaut de protectionnisme. Il est vrai que Frank Zappa de son vivant ne contestait pas le piratage, du moment qu’il ne lui dérobe en partie les retombée sur son investissement musical.
La Famille Zappa n’est pas philanthrope et je pense que tout ses royalties qui partent en fumée ne permettrons pas de restaurer et de nous proposer les moments musicaux que Frank Zappa nous gardait précieusement.
Je suis autant fautif en tant que Zappaïen d’avoir profiter un tant soit peu des plages musicales proposées sur ce site, même si c’est pour la bonne cause.
Que se rassure la Famille Zappa j’ai acheté plus d’une soixantaines d’albums à la FNAC et chez Rennes Musique, Vidéos sur Frank Zappa qui m’ont été offertes et acheter à la FNAC .
Et s’il nous était plus facile d’acquérir les albums en France ceux que la Famille Zappa produits en ce moment je les commanderai sans hésiter.
Chère Famille Zappa soyez indulgent pour cet euphorie musicale que vous condamnez, il est vrai que les fans de Frank Zappa détourne les règles, et même si cela est dommageable pour votre Famille et pour vos finances c’est que Frank leurs manquent , à eux aussi.
Frank nous à prouver que l’art ne se trouve pas que dans la voie de la raison.
Mes amitiés et bon courage aux concepteurs de ce blog.
I am just loving the Google translation of Moijeil’s post! It’s a great way of learning English::
It does little too want to Zappa Family for this upsurge of protectionism. It is
Although Frank Zappa during his lifetime did not piracy, as long as he does it
Steals partly fallout from its investment musical.
The Zappa Family is not philanthropist, and I think all his royalties party
Smoke will not restore, and we propose that Frank musical moments
Zappa we preciously guarded.
I am as much at fault as Zappaïen advantage of having even the slightest bit of beaches
Music offered on this site, even if it’s for a good cause.
What would reassure the Family Zappa I bought more than one soixantaines albums FNAC and
In Rennes Music, Videos on Frank Zappa to me and offered to buy at FNAC.
And if we were easier to acquire those albums in France that the Zappa Family
Products at the moment I Love How without hesitation.
Dear Family Zappa be indulgent for this musical euphoria that you condemn, it is
Although fans of Frank Zappa diverts rules, and even if it is harmful to
Your family and your finances Frank is that their missing, too.
Frank us to prove that art is not only to the path of reason.
My friendships and good courage to designers of this blog.
What was it that Moon said about “Everyone is going mad”?
I can see where she would get that notion from…..
I’ve given the ZFT the benefit of the doubt in the past, but this is just plain stupid. I can understand their objection with the bootlegs (although I don’t agree with it), but the rest of the website is a fantastic resource. Not to mention the fantastic design of the website. ZFT should be pleased they have such loyal fans that are willing to spend so much time spreading the word. Dweezil says he wants to bring Zappas music to a new generation of fans. Surely that would be a lot easier if you let the current fans spread the word too.
If ZFT found the quotes page offensive then I guess they won’t like Wikiquotes. I found the following to be fitting:
“I don’t give a fuck if they remember me at all.” ZFT is working hard on making that a reality.
“There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer shelf life.”
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Frank_Zappa
Kevin: thanks for posting Gail’s response on your website.
Gail says:
With all due respect, I completely fail to see how that applies to KUR. We’re simply fans who love the man and the music. All we’ve ever done here is point to interesting articles, reviews, interviews, post news regarding new releases or ZPZ events. How is that “casting myself as god”?
Gail says:
With “copyrighted material”, I can only assume she is referring to (1) the image of FZ on the header (now gone) and (2) the little thumbnails of album artwork in the discography section. When I started KUR 7 years ago zappa.com was a dust-gathering little ghost town with tumbleweeds blowing through it. How was I then supposed to contact anyone at the ZFT? As for the bittorrent linking: at KUR we have never linked to any site or webpage that was (illegally) offering official FZ releases — in fact, at one time I managed to pressure one of those sites into pulling their official FZ-downloads. How? By pointing them out here at KUR. And if, as Gail suggests, we ever linked to or posted “work that we just published”, then I would sincerely like to see that post. You won’t find one.
Gail says:
I suggest she reads the 190+ comments above this one.
Gail says:
Again, I’m assuming she is talking about the artwork thumbnails in the discgraphy section. If this site were to offer high-resolution poster-format scans of artwork for people to download and hang on their walls, then yes: that would be a flagrant violation of copyright. But to have low-res 100×100 pixel graphics as a visual aid in a page that serves to offer reviews of albums? Preposterous?
Gail says:
I applaud this! However, I don’t think sending C&D letters is the way to do it.
I’m not even a Frank Zappa fan, I am a member of that rare but hardy breed, a Mothers Of Invention fan. If I want (orginal) Mothers Of Invention info, I was far likelier to get it here than from ZFT. Now I can’t.
I don’t give a shit what Z-Man, who is Smithers to Gail’s Burns, says. When is the Mothers stuff (a whole bunch of which is being denied me) coming out? How will I find out?
Quote from the GZ Letter to Kevin Hoover (http://crushallboxes.blogspot.com/):
“My favorite idea of a good time in these instances would be to be able to authorize these “fan” sites and work with them as part of the education and cooperation process – even though that is time-consuming. In the main, these people NEVER write or contact us up front to ask permission. (Considerate fans do.)”
Barry, did you ever ask permission? It never would have occurred to me to ask. If this is what she really wants then Zappa.com should have a blanket policy stating what’s allowed or not, just to be clear. She’s right, it would be very time consuming to approve each site (and check up on it). Something like ‘You may only use images and likenesses for review purposes’ might work, I don’t know.
I’m glad KUR didn’t fold, can’t wait to see what’s next.
Dagnabbit Barry, you posted your comment while I was typing mine!
Just read Gail’s statement on the Crush All Boxes blog. She has some very good points. Though I do agree she should be more specific about what exactly this particular site is doing to offend the said copyrights. Was it really small pics of album covers and photos of Frank? If so, I’d disagree with her and say that’s probably going too far. You can’t really run a fan site without any content related to the artist.
Most artists support a healthy online fan-community on various sites: both official and unofficial. Maybe it’s just that the ZFT wants to work together with the fan sites, rather than in the dark. I can understand that. It could be that this C&D letter was even sent by the lawyer who works for the ZFT before she personally knew this “specific” letter was being sent (she partly implies that this might be the case in her response). We just don’t know. Though a C&D letter without first trying to establish friendly contact with fairly reputable site like this is a bit overly-aggressive. On the other hand, I know of several purported Zappa “fan” sites out there that probably fully deserve a C&D letter right away! And I’d encourage any true Zappa fan to boycott those sites.
Gail had one really good point about people (including some from posts above here) thinking they “know” what Frank would have wanted or would have done here. These types of comments are both absurd and insulting to the Zappa family. Do you really think that you know more abut what Frank would have wanted or how he would have reacted to all this more than HIS OWN FAMILY, just because you’ve collected 100 Zappa cds and have read even 300 interviews with him??? I think not. This is HIS FAMILY. I think they know him better than ANY of us. In fact, I’m sure of it.
I was about to order the latest 3 releases from ZFT. I won’t. I was going to see ZPZ again next year since I have seen them 3 times so far. I won’t. I own the entire released catalog already. I have downloaded the Friday boot for years. I have enough. Screw ZFT. The greed is sickening. No more. I am done with them.
“You can’t really run a fan site without any content related to the artist.”
And btw, I’d be interested to know if you CAN copyright all images of a person. I doubt you can. Any copyright lawyers on here? ;-)
There are some pretty odd copyrighted images out there though. For example, did you know that the image of the Eiffel Tower at night is copyrighted? You cannot legaly take a picture of it and publish it without getting permission from the city of Paris. A photo of the tower during the day is fine however. Yeah, go figure. A friend of mine is involved in online publishing and consulting and comes across these oddball things all the time. However, copyrighting all created and potential photos and likenesses of a person? Not sure that can be done.
Where’d the photos used for the graphic work on this site come from?
Also, if anyone is interested, here’s a link to the US governments copyright laws on “fair use”: http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html
..and: http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107
in part: “the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright.”
>Kevin Hoover Says:
>Yes, I just read it on the show. When I get home I’ll post it to
>Crush All Boxes http://crushallboxes.blogspot.com/
Man, Gail says it best in her OWN words: “Ignorance is ignorable”. Thanks for being so honest about your position Gail.
Just thought I’d add my name to the list and say- this was/is/continues to be a wonderfully informative and entertaining website. I visit often and check out the blog and check discography details etc. even though I never contribute directly. Keep fighting the good fight/doing the good work as long as it remains possible to do so- please. BTW, this thread is getting really interesting (although I wish it didn’t need to exist in the first place).
I naively thought that the ZFT was viewing KUR as being an extension of the conceptual continuity.
Fucking wrong.
As Ken said a few hours ago … it’s sometimes shitty.
We’ll be with you
Gail is “Ignorance”. There are rapid share blogs out there offering the entire official cattle log for download . Shut those people down instead of attacking a TRUE fan base blog like KUR . Gails motives are right , but she is attacking her friends and letting the REAL bad people thrive. “Ignorance”
As a little aside, the problem of ‘protecting’ the work, image, etc of a deceased artist isn’t soley a sore point in the music world. There are often problems encountered by (for example) publishers of fiction who wish to make use of the work of authors from the other side, and in many cases they run into vast, vast, piles of nonsense from the estates of the deceased. Often this results in their work, over the years, becoming more and more obscure and fading from view altogether. Worth bearing in mind.
you gotta give Gail credit for writing a very, very careful, diplomatic letter on the situation. Though her comments really dont have much to do with what KUR has done/stands for. Sure, there’s protecting the artist’s legacy but then there’s just being anal (re:lawsuits over quoting him and not allowing his image to be posted). Sure she is in a position to do so but if you want to take it that way, she’s being hypocritical, I mean ZOPPA didnt take all the photographs, ZEPPO didnt create the all album artwork, will they be getting their royalties? and Frank is not excluded in this criticism, look how many people he fucked over and put a publishing credit on their solos, etc. Yeah she may have his best interest at heart, yeah, Zopplin himself MAY have done the same with KUR (we’ll never know) but stupidity and greed are just that, regardless of where they come from.
I dont think anyone has claimed to know ZEPPY and what he would do, we just criticize what’s being done with his work, similar to a critique on a muscian performing his compositions- everything’s open to interpretation. My stance is that Gail should just sell everything, tapes, publishing, etc. and get out of the business, sell it all to Ryko or Rhino, people who care about the music but know how to release records!
Ryko wasnt so bad, I mean there were some artwork issues but didnt the president nearly bankrupt his company and ended up losing his job to get the catalogue out there? Interesting enough, in an interview, Gail’s criticism of Ryko came down to the fact that they submerged the market by releasing the catalogue en masse- if it was up to her, would she have released them water torture? I could see it now, 12 years later and we’re still pining for “Roxy and Elsewhere”, oh and I hear they’re gonna release a DVD from that show, man that’ll be sweet…
I, too, am a member of that rare but hardy breed: a MOI fan. If you need any particular info regarding the original Mothers, contact me through Last.fm:
http://www.last.fm/user/urbangraffito
Barry,
I would like to add to my previous comments that I am full of admiration for you and your fellow KUR team for wanting to continue in the face of this threat. To expand on this, the fact that I admire your work in the past on this site, and your current stance, does not mean that I see any of you as gods. Nor do I see the man with the trademarked facial hair as a god, just as an original and interesting musician, who made great music despite being a human being with all that human status means in terms of flaws.
What KUR has given me, and others as is obvious from the posts above, is a sense of community. The official, business-based organisation also creates a community – mainly of consumers.
The natural focus for the KUR community is to discuss, debate and share opinions about the things they have in common, and this is going to involve many mentions of the aforementioned imperial wearer. And you cannot have discussion without information to discuss, whether this is the music, the instruments, the films or other relevant details. So sharing information for the sake of dsharing opinions is (or should be considered) fair use of the material, even when it is a thumbnail of a copyright images.
This debacle has made me aware of how much I appreciate KUR, so thanks to all the team for being the focus of a community that it is a privilege to part of, and I look forward to remaining part of it as it moves forward through this current distraction.
@ Barry: is this where all this is going? ;)
You can open it on a russian / chinese server and then no one will bother you again!
Go on with this work we all love so much.
From Uruguay, South América
208 responses as of this second – minus 16 from the ‘broken-hearted’ Man = “190+ comments above this one”. Glad we made it!
Bless Kevin Hooper, David Oecker, and the smattering of reason herein.
Now I’m going to read Gail’s response; I’d been wanting to hear her side…
Long Live KUL!
If Gail really wants to be able to “authorize” KUR and work with Barry in some way or form, I’m not really sure how I’d feel about that. I know it would probably bring some obvious changes to the website (so long, Friday Boots), but it would be reassuring to know that if Gail’s giving us the thumbs up on what Barry & Co. are able to do, this sort of thing would probably never happen again.
Barry – my comment on Gail’s letter (after waiting for moderation) is available now at Crush All Boxes (isn’t it a prohibited name?…). 2 comments (your & mine) written at the same time early this morning – almost the same. :-)
I wonder if the following artists that ‘sampled’ FZ were sued:
Meat Beat Manifesto- “hello teenage america” (you can guess what was sampled)
Big Audio Dynamite-“Megatop Phenox” ( a loop of the bass-line from the CD of “The Gumbo Variations”
I only ask ‘coz these recordings have been out for years, and I rather see GZ’s lawyers go after these guys, than KUL. At least profit was made from these ‘samples’!
There’s a green trademark in Barry’s lot. License #650 BN. You gotta move it.
There’s a green trademark in Barry’s lot. License #650 BN. You gotta move it.
I doubt that ZFT is capable of avoiding the growing use of the FZ legacy on the web, as much as marijuana consumption… For every blog they try to get rid of, many will blossom, even moved by the spirit of counterbalance that will prevail over greed and anger. If I may say so, there are plenty of better things to do than to confront non-profit music lovers organized fan societies such as KUR, which does a great job digging otherwise lost material about the man and his opus. Let’s not allow that BIP & friends’ good work had been in vain, it is clearly a bigger bang effect stimulator for the Z fanhood.
ha ha ha. I cannot believe anyone is suckered by Gail’s (obviously pre-prepared) letter. See the comments on “100% Zappa” above and then talk to just about anyone else who has done business with her.
She’s an absolute fruitcake and needs to be hospitalized. She is a pariah in the music industry and not to be trusted. No one wants to work with her because she will make your life a living hell.
i have read all the posted comments !
i really am at a loss for words about the current letter to KUR
i have loved FZ’s music for 30 years
what’s the big deal Gail ?
its not like someone is getting filthy rich like you are when selling bootleg copies of Franks music !
Frank made you what you are NOT you or you’re business decisions thats for God Damn sure !
i support KUR and i support ZPZ and i also support ZFT but on the other hand Gail even though you are a human being and a Mother to you’re kids YOU are really pissing me off !
Long Live Zappa !
Maybe we should all just dream imaginary boots…
This is crazy
IS INSANE
what’s the big deal Gail ?
Fuck Off
Gail Zappa and ZFT
The ZFT is not in difficult financial times. They aren’t doing this for the money. They are EXTREMELY protective of Frank’s works (as they should be) and are completely in their rights to do this.
Now that thats out of the way, I am really disappointed. I considered picketing outside Zappa Records and ICA, but I don’t think it would do any good.
The problem is that Zappa didn’t want stuff going out that he didn’t think was perfect, or up to his standards. The ZFT has tried to make sure that everything they produce is up to those standards (Joe Travers has been doing a great job in the Vault), but even they fail (Kaiser Rolls? Seriously? Blurst song evs!) on occasion. I’m sure Frank would have loved to take a bunch of concerts and studio recordings, master them, chop them up and release something that is musically interesting. He didn’t want people listening to 2nd or 3rd rate boots (no matter how much we love them) because, quite simply — most of them SUCK. The audio is terrible, the mixing is way off and you can’t even hear the entire composition most of the time.
I was under the impression that FZ condoned “tape swapping”, which is what I consider KUR to be engaged in, but perhaps not?
Maybe if they released some full concerts from the vault every year people wouldn’t have to go around trying to bootleg everything. I for one would buy an entire FZ concert series in a heartbeat.
Having read Gail’s letter, I get the feeling that she honestly feels personally hurt and threatened by all unauthorized uses of Frank’s image. And judging from all the shit he had to go through in his lifetime to get his music heard, maybe that’s understandable. But Gail needs a better understanding of what the internet is all about. What she doesn’t realize is that Frank’s image is not fundamentally weak and in need of protection from attack whenever he’s discussed on the internet, but fundamentally STRONG — discussions of his music and legacy only feed the flames of interest. Also, I’m not a lawyer, but what’s all this about the “risk of failure to do so [protect copyright interests]”? It’s my understanding that, unlike the situation with trademarks, nothing bad will happen if you don’t protect your copyright in all instances.
Sure, Frank could be quite litigious in his lifetime, but the flipside of that is that he always understood that his fans were his greatest resource, and as long as they weren’t profiting off of his image, he tolerated tape trading and the like. Gail can dismiss “gossip and fiction and innuendo” until she’s blue in the face, but she can’t change the fact that this stuff is an integral aspect of any fan community. I have about fifty googolplex Zappa CDs, but I still have an unhealthy desire to learn more about the composer, and the ZFT isn’t going to be my sole source of information. They’ll manage to stay in business on the merits of the music left in the Vault, but it’s not worth their time to dig up every FZ magazine interview and TV appearance and get the necessary rights to release them officially in one handy package.
I’ve been reading KUR since it was called “The Way I See It, Barry” or whatever, and here’s why:
– I want to read a more intelligent discussion of FZ’s oeuvre than whatever illiterate crap people are spewing on the zappa.com forums, and I like seeing links to websites and news articles on tangential topics.
– I don’t want to have to scour Ebay for someone’s cum-stained copy of the April 1984 Hustler to find the Thing-Fish pictorial.
– I want to hear Frank’s sarcastic onstage comments as recorded on shitty audience bootlegs, but don’t think every FZ show is worth shelling out money for (you’ve heard one lightning-fast phoned-in rendition of “Dinah-Moe Humm” and you’ve heard them all).
– Would the ZFT ever release “Resolver + Brutality”? Are they even aware that it exists?
I think you should make a good-faith effort to find out what Gail Zappa wants, and try to respect her wishes to a reasonable extent, but it’s ridiculous for any public figure or representative thereof to try to control all online discourse about them. What you’re doing (if the server is in the US as opposed to Belgium) is protected by the US Constitution, regardless of what today’s draconian US copyright laws, which only arrived at their current state after extensive overhauls by corporate lobbyists, might say. The Constitution, so beloved by Gail, provides for copyrights in order to “promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts” — that is, to benefit society as a whole, not just rightsholders. And again, as you said, this falls well within the bounds of fair use (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use):
(quote)
Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include—
1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.
(unquote)
But unfortunately fair use is just a defense and is therefore no protection for poor schlubs like you and me against harassment through frivolous lawsuits. So there comes a point where you should draw the line and move to a foreign server.
Jeez, go to ebay and see all the true crap profiteering off of Zappa’s back. Watches, mugs, wall clocks, posters, dildoes, dvd’s, aprons, ceedees, you name it. Nah, I have a better idea, let’s shut down a fan site. It will be so much easier. Take about 15 minutes of billable lawyer time. Asswipes.
I always do my part by REPORTING the illegal, unauthorized material being sold on eBay. And it is always taken down!
The classical situation of “someone wants to make a living out of being a heir”. Well, you have to pay your duties having BMWs and all that. It´s absolutely out of discussion, that only the family knows best, of what HE might wants today. He´s dead. He´s dead for a long time. People change. So it is not only the case, that his family might know or not (!), what he wants today. They don´t know. We don´t know.
vince, ever stop to think that those samples were authorized by ZFT, unlike this website? What have you got against sampling?
All of you need to get over it. There’s nothing on this website worth saving. Everything on here has been stolen from better fansites. If you want a great Zappa website, the official Zappa website still exists – it’s the best Zappa website on the ‘net. ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES. Screw KUR!
Don’t know the history of Isaac/Z-Man and this site but he’s certainly making an ass of himself. Isaac, be a good boy and move on. If you don’t like the company, leave. In the real world you would have been beaten to a pulp by now.
>ZooMan Says:
>
>All of you need to get over it.
Did the Doritos finally hit your gag reflex? If you look closely you may find Poop-Head-Owen in your vomit — and the next thing you’re going to try to convince us here at KUR is that the poor lawyer needed to create a job for himself, and that we should feel sorry for his inability to make an honest living.
Bat-brain#2, stop supporting these fuckers who are taking away business and attention from officially sanctioned, GREAT Zappa releases in favor of shitty bootlegs free for lazy fucktards like you to download while you’re waiting for your welfare checks to arrive.
Bat-brain#1: WHO THE FUCK IS ISAAC?!?!
Bat-brain#1: WHO THE FUCK IS ISAAC?!?!
Everyone whose brain had oxygen at the immediate time of birth isn’t supporting these KUR dingbats.
Z-man says:”If you want a great Zappa website, the official Zappa website still exists – it’s the best Zappa website on the ‘net.”
Are you kidding? Or are you really as dumb as you make out?
Z-man is a lonely little boy. Why isn’t he posting his irrationalities over at zappa.com, I wonder?
Take care, KUR.
Is this Ahment thinking?
“Bat-brain#1: WHO THE FUCK IS ISAAC?!?!”
A Cypress Hill and Mike Nelson fan. Not that it makes a heck of a lot of a difference to you.
giantalbinopenguin….HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAA Look who’s talking!!!!
Nice comeback. Answers my question perfectly. Thanks.
Also, a very dry ha ha.
Holy shit, does this mean that my giant CD rack of Zappa disks are just case displays? Logic suggests otherwise.
If nobody told me that these great new vault releases even existed, well shit, that’s some great marketing. I would write something about how idiotic your theory is about KUR readers preferring bootlegs over official releases, but I have to go get my food stamps.
Boys and Girls: please do not feed the troll.
Lol! Nice theory! Anyhow: this website should just move to a server in canada or sweden, where the liberal copyright laws mean you don’t have to give a [insert explative] about any letters from US lawyers.
I have some sympathy with Gail Zappa, but it’s always been my impression that she is out of her depth in trying to manage the F* musical legacy. Z**pa.com has not been well run – infrequent and sometimes irrelevant and/or inarticulate updates, for example. Barfko Swill is an unreliable and expensive mail order business. The choice and methods of release of posthumous Z**pa material has been inconsistent both in terms of quality and distribution, causing much frustration to a dedicated international fan-base. She really should reconsider licensing the whole shebang to an outfit like Rhino or Ryko who know how to do this kind of thing and have the resources to do it properly.
The attack on KUR is undoubtedly misconceived and, to say the least, heavy-handed. Barry has not profited from F* via KUR – he runs the site out of love. It’s anybody’s guess whether the donations he gets meet his costs.
The idea behind the Cease and Desist letter is to scare you. The lawyers bank on Barry/KUR not having the time, energy or money to defend a protracted lawsuit. This is not justice and does not mean that the plaintiff is right or would even ‘win’ a lawsuit. In my opinion, the only area in which the Z*T might have a good case is with The Friday Boots – all other aspects of the complaint are covered by the ‘fair use’ defence. The claims about the use of pictures of F*, his name and quotations are absurd and would be laughed out of court. But even if the Z*T were to win the lawsuit they would have to show that they had suffered some loss through KUR’s activities. As nothing on KUR has ever been offered for sale by KUR, that would be difficult. Especially as Barry has always made a point of telling his readers that product is available over at z**pa.com whenever an official release or event is imminent.
So, Barry, you should reply to the lawyers pointing out the realities of the situation – particularly that you haven’t made any money out of F* but, on the contrary, have engaged in some admirable marketing on behalf of F* from which the Z*T have benefited financially. Tell them you are prepared to negotiate rather than make a counter-claim for marketing services and defamation damages for their false allegations of breach of copyright. A compromise should be possible, especially as Gail’s main objection to the Z*T being involved with ‘fan sites’ is the time and effort involved rather than the principle. You only have to show Gail and her lawyers your readers’ responses on this issue to persuade her that you are a useful partner and that closing KUR down would alienate a significant part of the Z*T’s customer base. Including me!
Hey, here’s an idea!
How about if Gail Zappa contacted KUR and
(in the kindest way possible)
Conveyed her concerns to Barry
(without involving blood-sucking lawyers)
AND asked him to
(and advised him HOW TO)
avoid possible legitimate legal concerns…
By promoting FZ’s music legally, without losing any element of this DEFINITIVELY CREATIVE blog?
There is a way out of this without dwelling on rancor and disappointment. This could be worked out. RIGHT?
Anyone read Milan Kundera? “Immortality” Haven’t read it in a long time, but it speaks to Artists, and, perhaps, families who are trying to preserve/conserve/create legacies.
One can hardly blame them, but art does have a life of its own.
The Purple Lagoon is such a great piece of music.
Gail, you’re not going to go broke because of the friday boots at KUR, let alone some FZ quote reproduced there or youtube video linked there.
Dweez, ZPZ is actually getting CONSTANT FREE PUBLICITY there.
Your livelihood is not endangered by KUR. I’d say, rather the opposite.
You’re paying lawyers to get rid of that?
More true words were never spoken, kid. Go after those rapidshare blogs that are actually ripping off the ZFT instead of crapping on a great community of diehard Freaks (that want to do nothing more than celebrate the man’s musical legacy — something I have never asked permission to do, and am not about to start asking now).
It’s not GZ/ZFTs job to protect FZs legacy. Their only job is to sell as many CDs and DVDs and T-Shirts as possible. As FZ already stated when he was alive: “I don’t care if I’m remembered.” The only reason why GZ and the ZFT would care is because of the dollars involved. Just look at everyone who has ever been associated with Zappa and his family over the years. Photographers, album designers, musicians. All treated as employees for hire. And as employees for hire, everything they created became the property of Zappa or his family. Like it or not, agree with it or not, it left a lot of disgruntled people over the years. When one has grown used to stepping on the rights of others to achieve one’s aims and goals, the latest actions against KUR are seen in a completely different light.
Well said. Nobody knows.
Please, don’t feed the troll. Donations of clean underwear are appreciated, though.
I couldn’t agree with you more.
You know, I think you MIGHT ACTUALLY BE eatin’ some male-prostitute cock, namely Barry the Imaginary Publisher!!!!! HAAA HAAAA HAAAAA
This Cease and Desist letter isn’t the first that GZ/ZFT’s lawyers have sent, and most likely won’t be the last. I recall when former members of the original MOI reunited to form the Grandmothers (some very fine musicians in my opinion) in the early 1980s, they received a very cold reception from FZ who thought they were infringing on his copyright of the Mothers. Later, upon his passing, GZ attempted to stop the Grandmothers from touring suggesting they were infringing on ZFT copyright (although the Grandmothers have produced original compositions). So, KUR is in vastly good company. Barry, I suggest you frame that Cease and Desist letter for posterity.
Found this tidbit of information gathering dust…
Gail and the kids care too much about the fans to sell off the recordings to some greedy corporation who would never release ANYTHING that hadn’t been already. Instead of:
Civilization, Phaze III (December 1994)
The Lost Episodes (February 1996)
Läther (September 1996)
Frank Zappa Plays the Music of Frank Zappa: A Memorial Tribute (October 1996)
Have I Offended Someone? (April 1997)
Mystery Disc (September 1998)
Everything Is Healing Nicely (December 1999)
FZ:OZ (August 16, 2002)
Halloween (February 4, 2003)
Joe’s Corsage (May 30, 2004)
QuAUDIOPHILIAc (September 14, 2004)
Joe’s Domage (October 1, 2004)
Joe’s XMASage (December 21, 2005)
Imaginary Diseases (January 13, 2006)
Trance-Fusion (October 24, 2006)
The Making Of Freak Out! Project/Object (December 5, 2006)
The Making Of Freak Out! Project/Object (deluxe) (December 12, 2006)
The Frank Zappa AAAFNRAA Birthday Bundle (December 15, 2006 (iTunes exclusive)
Buffalo (April 1, 2007)
The Dub Room Special (August 24, 2007)
Wazoo (October 30, 2007)
We would get endless remix after remix of “Zappa’s Greatest Hits!” Believe me, no one wants to hear a techno remix of Dancin’ Fool.
HE himself started endless mix / remix / different / longer / shorter releases during his lifetime – so where would be the difference? And what´s wrong about a techno remix of “Dancin´ Fool”?
Except for a very few releases, a lot of what has come out of the vault is of extremely questionable value except to diehard Freaks like myself. Like I’ve said many times before: it’s all gravy.
I think what bothers the fans so much is the Big Internet Chill has set in. KUR being just the latest in the long line of icy occurrences.
NEWMRADIO for instance:
http://newmradio.wordpress.com/2007/08/31/jam-bloggin-update-zappa-family-trust-copyright-infringement-edition/
Or Burning Dervish:
http://www.burningdervish.com/2007/03/burning-dervish-volume-10-frank-zappa.html
It has been suggested that the Gross National Product is perhaps not the best indicator of how well we are doing as a society since it tells us nothing about the Quality of our Lives … but, is this worth dwelling upon as we grovel our way along in the general direction of the 21st Century? When future historians write about us, they base their conclusions on whatever material goods survive from Present-Day America, we will undoubtedly stand alone among nations and be known forevermore as ‘THOSE WHO CHOSE CHEESE.’
As you will recall, folks, nobody ever had as much going for them in the beginning as we did. Let’s face it … we were fantastic. Today, unfortunately, we are merely WEIRD. This is a shocking thing to say, since no Red-Blooded American likes to think of his or herself as being WEIRD, but when there are other options and a whole nation CHOOSES CHEESE, that is WEIRD.
Our mental health has been in a semi-wretched condition for quite some time now. One of the reasons for this distress, aside from CHOOSING CHEESE as a way of life, is the fact that we have (against some incredibly stiff competition) emerged victorious as the biggest bunch of liars on the face of the planet. No society has managed to invest more time and energy in the perpetuation of the fiction that it is moral, sane and wholesome than our current crop of Modern Americans.
This same delusion is the Mysterious Force behind our national desire to avoid behaving in any way that might be construed as INTELLIGENT. Modern Americans behave as if intelligence were some sort of hideous deformity. To cosmeticize it, many otherwise normal citizens attempt a peculiar type of self-inflicted homemade mental nose-job (designed to lower the recipient’s socio-intellectual profile to the point where the ability to communicate on the most mongolian level provides the necessary certification to become ONE OF THE GUYS). Let’s face it … nobody wants to hang out with somebody who is smarter than they are. This is no FUN.
Americans have always valued the idea of FUN. We have a National Craving for FUN. We don’t get very much of it anymore, so we do two things: first, we rummage around for anything that might be FUN, then (since it really wasn’t FUN stuff in the first place) we pretend to enjoy it (whatever it was). The net result: STRESSED CHEESE.
But where does all this CHEESE really come from? It wouldn’t be fair to blame it all on TV, although some credit must be given to whoever it is at each of the networks that GIVES US WHAT WE WANT. (You don’t ask – you don’t get). Folks, we now have GOT IT … lots of it … and, in our Infinite American Wisdom, we have constructed elaborate systems to insure that future generations will have an even more abundant supply of that fragrant substance upon which we presently thrive.
If we can’t blame it on the TV, then where does it come from? Obviously, we are weird if we have to ask such a question. Surely we must realize by now (except for the fact that we lie to ourselves so much that we get confused sometimes) that as Contemporary Americans we have an almost magical ability to turn anything we touch into a festering mound of self-destructing poot.
How can we do this with such incredible precision? Well, one good way is to form a Committee. Committees composed of all kinds of desperate American Types have been known to convert the combined unfulfilled emotional needs and repressed biological urges of their memberships into complex masses of cheese-like organisms at the rap of a gavel. Committee Cheese is usually sliced very thin, then bound into volumes for eventual dispersal in courts of law, legislative chambers, and public facilities where you are invited to eat all you want.
If that doesn’t fill you up, there is the exciting Union Cheese … the most readily available cheese-type offered. The thing that’s so exciting about Union Cheese, from a gourmet’s point of view, is the classic simplicity of the mathematical formula from which it is derived. In fact, it is difficult to avoid a state of Total Ecstasy if one contemplates the proposition that no import quota yet devised has proven equal to the task of neutralizing the lethal emissions generated by the ripening process of this piquant native confection. Should we not be overtaken by some unspeakable emotion when we consider the fact that the smaller the amount of care taken in the preparation of each Union Cheese Artifact, the more triumphant the blast as the vapors stream forth from every nook and cranny of whatever it was that the stalwart craftsperson got paid $19.00 per hour to slap together?
Still hungry? Union Cheese might be the most readily available, but no type of cheese in America today has achieved the popular acceptance of Accountant Cheese. If it is true that YOU ARE WHAT YOU EAT, then surely our national willingness to eat this stuff tells us more about ourselves than we probably wish to know. Obviously we have found The Cheese To Believe In. Why not? It is manufactured by people who count money, endorsed as nutritionally sound by Civic Leaders, and delivered by The Media door to door. The Quality Of Our Lives (if we think of this matter in terms of ‘How much of what we individually consider to be Beautiful are we able to experience every day?’) seems an irrelevant matter, now that all decisions regarding the creation and distribution of Works of Art must first pass under the limbo bar (a/k/a ‘The Bottom Line’), along with things like Taste and The Public Interest, all tied like a tin can to the wagging tale of the sacred Prime Rate Poodle. The aforementioned festering poot is coming your way at a theatre or drive-in near you. It wakes you up every morning as it droozles out of your digital clock radio. An ARTS COUNCIL somewhere is getting a special batch ready with little tuxedos on it so you can think it’s precious.
Yes Virginia … there is a FREE LUNCH. We are eating it now. Can I get you a napkin?”
Frank Zappa
Guitar Magazine/1984
“The essence of Christianity is told us in the Garden of Eden
history. The fruit that was forbidden was on the tree of
knowledge. The subtext is, All the suffering you have is
because you wanted to find out what was going on. You could
be in the Garden of Eden if you had just keep your fucking
mouth shut and hadn’t asked any questions.”
urbangrafitto – on the ZPZ page they even courage you to take pictures: “Did you see this show at PetÅ‘fi Csarnok in Budapest?
Post your impressions/photos/reviews here.”
Someone said that if Gail had something particular in her mind about it all, she’d have contacted for example with this page in person – the thing that she’s coming with lawyers, in a letter MIGHT mean that they only want to frighten us. I don’t know – but am really curious.
Just another one?
This blog is honest & smart. Post autistic & post commercial.
Thus the following message for those who would like to attack it :
“Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe. ” ( FZ quote).
…that thing about hydrogen comes from Harlan Ellison (just in case anyone is thinking of sueing for quoting it……..no names but watch where my eyes rest)
It just comes from
– http://www.zappa-analysis.com/quotes-f.htm
– http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Frank_Zappa
Musically speaking. Do you truly believe that for instance J S Bach never ever quoted / deconstructed himself?
He had a miserable life ( like FZ and other composers).
He was for instance in charge of both :
(1) teaching pupils, boys who were far behind his knowledge. He disliked that part of the job, in order to earn a living he just kept doing it.
2) composing a new score each & every sunday. Musically he – every now and then – just decomposed his own earlier scores to someting new/ deconstructed music.
Oh god, Harlan Ellison…he likes his lawyers too!
hello…larual canyon mcdonalds…what can we get you gail?
I’ll have a triple whopper w/ xtra large fries…. and don’t worry about the money, I make a cozy ling from my late husband’s work… So does my son! Thank God for Frankie, otherwise we’d both be working at Mickey D’s ourselves!
well z-man. You have to go on a joe’s domage and Joe’s XMASage diet, from all that cocksucking.
Everyone: again, your support is appreciated.
However, please let us keep this conversation civilized and on topic. So please: no comments posing as “gz”, and no comments that merely aim to verbally insult the ZFT.
We are not, and have never been, out to hurt the ZFT in any way — that is in fact the exact point of my initial post.
Thanks…
Gail’s post is preposterous. What is preposterous is the notion that the free distribution of concert recordings is diluting the value of FZ’s copyright or the ZFT’s sales. Who is Gail to so who is a “true fan?”
I’ve thought about this a bit and want to bring up 2 other bands to see how they’ve handled copyrighted material. The style of music has little to do with it – music is music – but these bands “get it” and are good to their fans. In return, they get $$$. Simple.
1) Led Zeppelin – In their heyday LZ were always notoriously against people selling/ making bootleg shirts and recordings (see the Peter Grant yelling scene in The Song Remains The Same. This added to their mysterious lore. But lately even their attitude has greatly lightened up…..
http://blog.wired.com/music/2007/12/anti-piracy-fir.html
Obviously Zep are way more popular than Zappa (or most bands for that matter) will ever be. But isn’t the concept the same? They (now) realize that shitty live recordings just get them new fans, the cell phone movies (which are modern bootlegs) fuel the publicity flame and make the fans want to buy the real thing (in this case, a dvd of their reunion). LZ are also leaving torrent trackers alone.
2) Phish – These guys have some connections to Zappa (they covered Peaches, the drummer organized a Zappa starter CD) and just like the Grateful Dead, they listen to their fans, encourage live recordings and fan sites, and see that fans trading and discussing their music only helps their legacy live on. Zappa, Phish, and GD have another thing in common: The record companies were always worthless to them.
I guess my point (made early on a NY morning with no coffee) is that GZ/ ZFT should learn to work with their fans, not against them, especially given the very nature of the music they are trying to promote (difficult, never was super-popular, it’s in fucking 19/16 time for god-sakes).
GZ has to know that like 90% of the people on this or any Frank site will buy whatever her family is selling? Right?
IMHO this is a silly move on their part made so that some people will feel like they are doing “their job”, and the results will be negative rather than positive.
The answer (as many have said above) is to work WITH the many frank websites and cover bands and realize that anyone freaky enough to be obsessed with FZ/ MOI needs to be let loose on society to spread the word.
We all heard first heard frank in different ways, but many times I’m sure it involved someone else turning us on to him in some way My story: My friend in high school taped a Zappa bootleg (Halloween ’81) for me which led me on a lifelong love of FZ where I’ve given away thousands of my hard earned (and quickly depreciating) dollars to ZFT.
Frank’s music is by no means easy to get, pop friendly, or simple. Hell, once you get into Frank the next question seems to be “where do I start with 80+ albums). KUR is a place where people can sort out where to go next.
Radio never has, and never will, play Frank’s music. It’s a sad truth.
Given that fact, why would the ZFT want to take on the burden of selling AND promoting this stuff all by themselves? Especially when there are all of these Zappateers willing to do it for them Absolutely Free.
Shouldn’t they keep releasing stuff from the vault (via a real record distributor) , get back on itunes, and continue with ZPZ? That’s how they’ll make money and preserve the legacy of the composer. We don’t want Frank to end up in the cut-out bins!
Don’t Kill Ugly Radio
gail’s letter is spot-on. and if indeed KUR were doing such heinous things as posting torrent links to new ZFT releases, i think i’d be rather disappointed also. however that’s not the case. i’m just one fan, and i’d like to say that i’ve thrown down cash on every official release, no downloads or burned copies in my collection.
i like gail’s idea of “authorizing” certain fan sites. i wonder how she’d feel at that point about the friday boot, but maybe something could be worked out. sorry barry for all the crap you’ve got to wade through over this matter. have you tried finding a hosting service in sweden? i hear they have their own beliefs when it comes to copyright laws and international enforcement… not that that’s a the greatest way out of all this nonsense, but it’s a bit tempting to tihnk about i suppose…
anyhow thanks barry for everything you’ve done thus far, and thanks to all the contributers here. let’s hope we’ve just hit a bit of a pause for a little while with this thing…. best to all, gail & family too…
i’d like to take this to introduce then who don’t know the KINGS of ‘fair use’:
http://www.negativland.com/intprop.html
I got into them around the same time i first heard “lumpy Gravy”
http://www.negativland.com/negdisco_detail.html#stupid
To me, “Helter Stupid” was the first and maybe ONLY album that, in the style of both “Lumpy..” AND “Revolution #9”, but actually has MEANING!! it GOES SOMEWHERE! It has a tale to tell. I’m sure most people around here have heard of them, but if not, you can get their stuff on iTunes, or get their new ‘best of’ DVD.
anyway, to give an olive branch, I WILL say, at least the ZFT has not licenced out stuff to advertisers. i’m tired of hearing the Who and Led Zeppelin used to sell cars!
L Ron, you’re a man after my own heart.. and name, too. (My dad’s name actually was Ron!)
The takeaways here are that Barry means no harm, and has provided a fantastic resource. Also that Gail needs to be vigilant in protecting the Zappa legacy.
When the dust settles, perhaps we could move on to a more cooperative model.
Out of that long list of titles the troll made of which we have to “thank” the ZFT for, keep in mind that Lost Episodes, Läther, Have I Offended Someone? and Mystery Disc were released on the Ryko label which is why everyone is able to find and enjoy these releases trouble free versus the ones exclusive to Barfko.
Out of the other, independent releases, the only ones out on another release label are Halloween, QuAUDIOPHILIAc, Imaginary Diseases,
Trance-Fusion and MoFo which are buggers to find, inferior to the release job that someone like Ryko/Warner Bros. would make.
Sentimentality aside, what Barfko has incommon with Warner Bros. is that they’re both businesses who are trying to make money. The difference being that a company like Warner Bros. not only knows how to make more money but is in a position to make more (distribution, promotion, etc.). I fail to see how they would flood the market with “best-ofs” which are normally only released in lieu of lack of material, most likely they would give in to common sense and either work out something with itunes or you would have quite a few box sets come about (think of the resurge in archival material re:The Doors or Zep or Hendrix, and they’re just scrapping the bottom of the barrel there, if someone like Jim Page got ahold of the vault, there would be a Zappa store ala Wal Mart!).
Yet the list of post-humous works reveals something else, the shoddy quality of those releases. Think about it, outside of Civ – Everything, didnt the quality dip? Barring Im. and Trans., the rest were real disappointments or questionable releases. Like Joe’s Corsage, that really could of been something great- brilliant bonus tracks for MoFo or Halloween, selections from one of Zappa’s best shows- all to promote an unpopular format- tsk tsk…
The ZFT should stop trying to surprise their public but stick to the obvious crowd pleasers (for the mean time), give them the Roxy DVD, the Halloween shows, some Hot Rats era releases, a lot of guitar, a Mothers album now and then, fill up a disc past 40 minutes, even if its just dialogue, slam it down in every sleazy trendy music store in the Western world and you’ll be making hand over fist- and for fuck’s sake put some audio commentary on those DVDs!!
That’s how successful businesses are run ladies and gentlemen.
ps. Let the fHeart heads have their “Batchain Puller”, give Larry back his masters, Lather was a hatchet job and “Buffalo” kicked ass!
All of the above and more: They’ve got the big lawyers and the big money. But we’ve got the heart. Please, do not give up. We are counting on you. Please (and I think I mirror all fan feeling) count on us. We’ll be always at your side, man.
Long live FZ.
Perfect example of ZFT behavior and attitude, Balint. They encourage you to take pictures at ZPZ shows, but if you post them anywhere but on the ZPZ page, they send in the lawyers crying foul. Who do they think we are anyway? Employees for hire? This only confirms what I’ve said before. Zappa may be have been a great musician and composer, a capitalist of the first order, and passed on these tricks to his family, but he was also a human being and one great asshole when it came to screwing others to get what he wanted.
As for the distribution of bootleg/field recordings, the ZFT could learn something from the estate of the late Warren Zevon who posted the majority of WZ’s field recordings on the Internet Archive for Warren Zevon fans to download and share freely (as per the musician/composer’s wishes).
Il faut vous dire que j’ai quelques difficulté à suivre cette mauvaise aventure de ma Bretagne Française. Chez nous en France , nous aurons aussi cette éventualité à débattre, car si nous faisons la synthèse de notre musique dite moderne, celle qui à part la musique classique nous devons tout à la culture américaine et anglo-saxonne. Pour vous dire le reste qui ressemble à vous méprendre à de la pop, ressemble à de la merde. Donc , les musiciens Français de rock et de Navarre font du plagiats sur le mode musical américain en grande partie. Donc nous sommes des musiciens hors la loi et les gammes, les riffs, les solos que nous utilisons et que nous jouons sont en grande majeures partie emprunté à la musique outre atlantique , comme beaucoup d’artistes américains l’on fait envers les bluesmans noirs. La musique n’est plus depuis bien longtemps universelle et à pris le parti du pouvoir et du fric, le business que dénonçait Frank Z….. serrât toujours d’actualité. nous ne sommes que des planches à fric , vivement la mort.
Afflicted for translation
It should be said to you that I have some difficulty in follow this bad adventure of my French Brittany. On our premises in France, we will have also this possibility to discuss, because if we make the synthesis of our music known as modern, that which separately the classical music we owe all with the American and Anglo-Saxon culture. To tell you the remainder which resembles to mistake with the pop one, resembles shit. Therefore, the French musicians of rock’n’roll and Navarre mainly make plagiarisms on the American musical mode. Thus we are musicians out the law and the ranges, the riffs, the solos which we use and which we let us play in great major part are borrowed from the music in addition to the Atlantic, like much of American artists one makes towards the black bluesmans. The music is not any more since good a long time universal and with taken the party of the capacity and the fric, the business which Frank Z denounced….. always tightened of topicality we are only boards with fric, highly death.
P.S. By downloading anything at Zippo dot com, it immediately becomes the property of the Zippo Family Trust.
You said it, Starve!
Um. While Led Zeppelin’s consciousness-shift is refreshing, it’s also worth recalling that they owe a lot of their initial success to one Willie Dixon, who as far as I know never saw one thin dime for his part in their rise to popularity.
If I disagree with you or think you’re full of crap, I will gladly say so – to your face OR on the Interwebs. What I won’t ever stoop to is popping the leash on a pack of bloody lawyers to make you stop. Not over hurt feelings, or anything as abstract & subjective as a legacy.
FZ can rise from notoreity to fame, or vanish into obscurity – how the ZFT interacts with those who enjoy his music & ideas is pivotal in determining which way that penny drops. A response a la BEAT THE BOOTS would be far more evolved than sinking yet more time & cash into trying to dictate how his work is presented via litigation or the threat thereof. Every dollar thus WASTED (hello, it’s 2007, not 1984) is one less dollar available to put out another song or album. The more the ZFT pulls these cockamamie legal stunts, the more they hurt their own best interests & those of folks who’d otherwise be happy to continue indirectly supporting them via FREELY disseminating material which noone in their right mind would pay for anyway, like the Friday Boots. How pray tell does this meaningfully differ from the tape-sharing that FZ had no issue with, I wonder? Zappa referred to his work as “The World’s Finest Optional Entertainment” & so long as his heirs continue to take this elitist stance, more & more of us will exercise OUR option to go elsewhere, permanently.
This pattern of ongoing hostile behaviour serves only to alienate loyal fans – remember us? The ones that PAY for all of those round shiny things? The ones that have enabled the Zappas to keep their nice home & maintain the Vault in the first place? We are not “those types” – we are people who care about one another & about an important 20th Century composer. Without us, there wouldn’t be any legacy for the ZFT to protect, period. I’ve been one of those fans since circa 1970 – & I think Barry deserves credit from the ZFT for his time & effort on their behalf & an apology, ASAP … or, to put it country simple, it just won’t make any sense to me to contribute any more of my hard-earned dough to a bunch of lawyers so they can find a new victim.
“Do you know what I am really telling you?
Is there something that you can understand?
Do you know what I am really telling you?
Is there something that you can understand?
Do you know what I am really telling you?
Is there something that you can understand?
Do you know what I am really telling you?
Is there something that you can understand?”
“…supporting them via FREELY disseminating material which noone in their right mind would pay for anyway, like the Friday Boots.”
hey, I resemble that remark!
(Bought a few great sounding low-gen Maxells back in my ‘naive’ days :)
(the “say cheese manifesto” is brilliance!)
Faut il en arriver à casser le mythe Zappa, la copie ne remplacera jamais l’original.
Le piratage n’en n’est qu’une copie qui incite à se procurer l’original.
Je finit par me poser cette question, est ce que cela ne va pas être un bon coup de pub pour la Famille Zappa.
Avec cette affaire le phénix Zappaïen renaît de ses cendres.
Is necessary it to manage from there to break the myth Zappa, the copy will never replace the original. The hacking in is only one copy which encourages to get the original. I finishes by me putting this question, is what that will not be a good blow of pub for the Zappa Family. With this business the Zappaïen phoenix reappears of its ashes.
I guess this is the future … (may they dream on)
http://www.goodiebag.tv/episodes/rod_brickman.htm
If I intend to listen to “my” FZ-records, do I have to seek permission from the ZFT first in the future? Should I feel bad if I do not (I don’t own the rights to the material)? Am I allowed to write “FZ” and “ZFT” in a post like this?
…
moijeil, you’re a Baudrillard man arent you?
crudely dans francais:
Quesque tu jaime Baudrillard avec Simulacra?
Mightier Than An Army
Is An Idiot Who Cares.
hahaha ….. oohhhrrr
it’s not the future, though…
it’s the present!
cool vid
THIS IS ALL NINJA’S FAULT!!!
Ohhhhhrrrr, génial mais ce n’est pas le futur c’est maintenant.
Ohhhhhrrrr,brilliant but it is not the future it is now.
Paul Sempschi:
excuse moi Baudelaire et les fleurs du mal je connais, éclaire moi pour Baudrillard, pour ce qui est du simulacre je n’en suis que l’apparence. Si c’est à cause du procès il n’y à pas de fumée sans feu, et à qui profite l’incendie.
excuse to me Baudelaire and the flowers of the evil I know, light me for Baudrillard, as regards the show I am only appearance. If it is because of the lawsuit it there with step of smoke without fire, and which benefits the fire.
Thank you for your French message, it is sympathetic
Hey, moijeil, I just said that— Don’t be quoting me without my permission or I’ll sic’em Berger & Khan (A Law Corporation) shysters on ya!
Beyond this whole cease and desist fiasco, the one thing that scares me the most (okay, call me paranoid) is this movement toward the leasing of music like the leasing of software. Imagine not owning the record or CD that you buy. You are only leasing the songs to listen to from the copyright holder for a set period of time. If you share said song with a friend: you’re a criminal.
The future is now.
RIAA: Those CD rips of yours are still “unauthorized”
By Eric Bangeman | Published: December 11, 2007 – 10:46AM CT
Those MP3 and AAC files that you’ve ripped from your CD collection are still “unauthorized copies” in the eyes of the recording industry. In a brief filed late last week, the RIAA said that the MP3 files on a PC owned by a file-sharing defendant who had admitted to ripping them himself were “unauthorized copies.”
How the RIAA views its customers: completely untrustworthy
Digital Freedom Campaign to organize students against RIAA abuse
RIAA: we love fair use. No, really!
Fixing the “clear mismatch” between technology and copyright law: six ideas
Atlantic v. Howell is a bit unusual because the defendants, husband and wife Jeffrey and Pamela Howell, are defending themselves against the recording industry’s lawsuit without the benefit of a lawyer. They were sued by the RIAA in August 2006 after an investigator from SafeNet discovered evidence of file-sharing over the KaZaA network.
The Howells have denied any copyright infringement on their part. In their response to the RIAA’s lawsuit, they said that the MP3 files on their PC are and “always have been” for private use. “The files in question are for transfer to portable devices, that is legal for ‘fair use,'” reads their response.
After several years of litigation and nearly 30,000 lawsuits, making a copy of a CD you bought for your own personal usage is still a concept that the recording industry is apparently uncomfortable with. During the Jammie Thomas trial this fall, the head of litigation from Sony BMG testified that she believed that ripping your own CDs is stealing.
When asked by the RIAA’s lead counsel whether it was wrong for consumers to make copies of CDs they have purchased, Jennifer Pariser replied in the negative. “When an individual makes a copy of a song for himself, I suppose we can say he stole a song,” said Pariser. Making “a copy” of a song you own is just “a nice way of saying ‘steals just one copy’,” according to Pariser.
At least the recording industry is consistent. Last year, during the triennial review of the DMCA by the US Copyright Office, the record labels made the case that although consumers could freely and easily make copies of music on CDs, doing so is not explicitly authorized by the labels. Since they have not expressly authorized copying—even for the purposes of making backups—the ability to make copies should not be mistaken for fair use.
Based on the filing in Atlantic v. Howell and Pariser’s testimony, a lot of us have a bunch of “unauthorized” and “stolen” music on our hard drives—music that we’ve purchased ourselves. The recording industry may finally be making some serious strides to win consumers over by removing the shackles of DRM, but its continued insinuations that its customers are thieves threatens to disperse any build-up of goodwill among its customers.
At least in Canada, for the time being, we have gotten around this authorized/stolen debate by placing a tax on the purchase of CDRs and DVDs (just like the previous tax on cassettes), so that the proceeds of said tax can go to those artists/record companies who feel that their copyright has been infringed. Everybody is happy. For now. Although the US Congress, US Gov’t, and many US corporations are pressuring the Canadian gov’t heavily to change these laws in their favour.
Dear Barry,
Troubled times these are. I sincerely hope that you and Gail reach a reasonable state of mutual understanding.
I have to say I never bought less FZ material because of your site. I’ve been an FZ fan since the early 70’s. I was fortunate to see the old master perform for about ten times from 1973 to 1988. I’ve seen three ZpZ shows; one last year and two in 2007. I’ve got about 60 albums and even more cd’s and also some bootlegs and DVD’s.
For years I’ve been searching the internet for FZ live recordings. KUR provided lots of them. I’m a true fan in the fanatical sense. I want to hear each and every version of every song, because I’m interested in the evolution of these songs, however crappy the sound quality may be.
If e.g. the ZFT would release the 1988 shows in Rotterdam or Hamburg in an easily accesible way (available in most record stores) I would buy them, because I consider them to be great FZ shows. How do I know? Because I heard the boots of course. I’d love to hear them treated with love by Joe Travers.
Oh, I know FZ was no saint (thank God for that), but he was one of the greatest American composers. Joe Jackson, who I also consider to be a great musician, slightly less great than FZ though, played “Dirty Love” in his 2006 show. The song was announced as a song by a great American. (After the show Graham Maybe complimented me on my FZ shirt). I cannot imagine Gail sueing Joe for that.
KUR and Joe Jackson alike are paying respect to the works of art that FZ left us. So lets hope Gail and the rest of ZFT wil let KUR promote everything that Frank has done.
And, fellow commentators, let’s keep to the subject. Z-man, grow up. Don’t be an asshole. You’re not helping to clear the atmosphere.
Barry, I know I’ve said it before, but please keep up the good work. Of course the same goes for Andrew in the UK.
Love from Rotterdam (no, I’m not gay)
Barry – Can I have a private moment with you? -just want to speak my mind because music is the best.
I’ve known for a little while that the zippo family trust has not liked you, ok? Personally. Let’s say I’ve heard mutterings. Take it as a sign that if you’re noticed by the boss you’ve obviously arrived. I think I can try to help make peace (or at least not fuck the matter up anymore) with the zippos. I come in peace.
One of my best friends in the world is in ZippoPlaysZippo. I played with a zpz musician in high school back in the day. That fact that he plays with them is so coincidental its fucking cosmic debris.
We are both complete Zappa Freaks to the highest order (I blushingly got an unofficial 90% on the zappa quiz halloween ’07) and because of him I’ve been lucky enough to meet, and sometimes get to hang out with, Zippo plays zippo. aka Nipolion, Tarry Bizzio, Eve Mai, Bail Crappa, Toe Rathers, and raymutherfuckingwhite.
who really gives a fuck anyway, OK?
I’ve talked to them in the past in person and they are SERIOUS about the music. More serious than all of the smart, sarcastic, musical nerds on here combined. We all care about Frank and are on the same side. They appreciate us freaks, for shizzle.
Here’s the thing: moderate with them. Speak your thoughts to them OPENLY and HONESTLY. Via email. It’s worth a shot.
Be fair, diplomatic, and nice. Seek resolution and compromise. You are helping them get zippos music out there by doing the work that they clearly don’t have the time or resources for as admitted in print.
Avoid legalities at all costs and try to moderate to the best of your abilities. In every argument there is always the possibility of reconciliation. Or not?
Give peace a chance.
Titties n Beer
Excuse me, hipbone, but all the “smart, sarcastic, musical nerds on here combined” are a community of freaks that have come together to share our experiences of our love for the man’s music. These same “smart, sarcastic, musical nerds on here combined” IS the business. The Corporate Trust can piss on these “smart, sarcastic, musical nerds on here combined” at their own risk. They are only putting themselves out of business.
when the shit hits the fan
(and we are the fans)
turn on the air conditioning
lock the door
and call room service
do do room service
and if a someone named G*** answers
hang up.
seriously though
i love Gail
behind every great man is a great woman
and she is
i would love to see an amicable resolution to ZFT vs KUR
it can’t happen here?
sure it can.
hipbone lost me at “for shizzle”
Yes, jane23.
Behind every great man is a good woman.
I like Gail. She’s a peach.
It’s only her business practices that cause me
to scratch my head and wonder why?
A resolution? I dunno. As long as she (and her lawyers)
see us as either employees for hire, or racketeers, I really
don’t see there being much of a common ground.
Do you?
Remember, remember, the 11th of December
& a window all coated with snot,
from a certain song by a certain musician –
I’d like to name him, but I’d better not …
Check THIS out:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22251370/
From MSNBC:
Some companies/artists are behind the times (ZFT) and some are riding the tide of innovation (Radiohead). Unfortunately, a lot of loyal fans are suddenly becoming “criminals” doing just what comes natural.
most of the people
who downloaded the new radiohead release
on the “pay what you want” system
did so without paying
that is a hella business model
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22251370/
i followed the link.
why does the elton john photo remind me of Ms. Pinky???
technically, a web site that takes ad money and hosts boots is asking for it, period. it was good while it lasted.
that said, after getting thrown out (by house security for inciting a riot) of a fz concert back in the 70’s for holding up a sign that said “freak out”. I might just go to one more zpz gig with a sign that says “shame on zft, free kur”
It was an experiment on Radiohead’s part. Beyond that, they couldn’t pay for the publicity that it generated on their behalf (which was no doubt their intent in the first place).
On a completely different thought… I’m recalling all those mixed tapes I produced throughout the years for friends (with tracks of FZ interjected here and there in my attempt to turn them on to his music). Little did I know that I was breaking the law each time I pressed the record button. I wonder when the copyright police are going to come and punish me for my past and current deeds? I don’t think they’re about to offer me a donut and tell me to stick closer to church oriented social activities…
KUR is free.
urbangraffito Says:
I like Gail. She’s a peach.
Peaches en Re-Gail-Ya?
If I make a cassette copy of a CD cause my car doesn’t have a CD player then I guess I am breaking the law or is that fair use?
Désolé, Haaaaaa tu m’as battu d’un dixième dans la déposition de mon post. Savoir si j’avais l’avantage sur toi qui le diras. Pour ta gouverne c’est le bémol qui en fait la différence . Plagiat tu serrât si tu ressemble à l’identique de l’original. je suis bon joueur et faire plaît, c’est peu être pour cela que nous français nous ne gagnons aucune médailles.
En tout cas c’est sympa de répondre avec humour à un étranger français. La preuve c’est au moins que chaque coté de l’atlantique nous nous battions pour plus de liberté et contre les lobbies qui étouffent l’art . Ceux qui gouvernent sont au service du fric, et leurs pupilles se transforme en dollars où euros à la vue d’un bon projet , d’une bonne façon de récupérer le maximum de fric.
La Famille Zappa aurait pu proposer la diffusion troquée des morceaux plébiscité sur le site en demandant au nom de l’investissement pour la sauvegarde des archives de F.Z l’achat sur ce site par voie légale, au lieu de rentrer dans une affaire qui ne leurs porteras que préjudice moral, car la Famille Zappa à besoin de tout les Fans de F.Z pour pouvoir exister, et cela ne serait que pure folie d’écarter d’un coup de mains ceux qu’elle prend pour les vilains petit canard.
Chère Famille Zappa, le génie de Frank ne réside plus que dans vos archives et de ceux qui ont pour vous emprunter une partie de œuvre , c’est ensemble que nous devons pérenniser la mémoire de Frank Z. nous en sommes aujourd’hui à tronqué son NOM. Celui nous nous rassemblait à sa mémoire nous divisent.
Afflicted, Haaaaaa you beat me of a tenth in the deposition of my post. To know if I had the advantage on you who will say it. For your control surface it is the flat which makes the difference of it. Plagiarism you tightened if you resembles identical of the original. I am a good player and to make likes, it is little to be for that that we French we do not gain any medals. In any case they is sympathetic to answer with humour a French foreigner.
The proof it is at least that each with dimensions of the Atlantic we fight for more freedom and against the lobbies which choke art. Those which control are with the service of the fric, and their pupils is transformed into dollars where euros with the sight of a good project, in a good way of recovering the maximum of fric.
The Zappa Family could have proposed the diffusion exchanged of the pieces voted by plebiscite on the site by asking in the name of the investment for the safeguard of the files of F.Z for the purchase on this site by legal way, instead of returning in a business which their will carry only moral wrong, because the Zappa Family to need for all Fans of F.Z to be able to exist, and that would be only pure madness to draw aside from a blow of hands those which it takes for Ugly Duckling.
Dear Famille Zappa, the genius of Frank does not lie any more but in your files and among those which have to borrow you part of work, it is together that we must perennialize the memory of Frank Z to us with are today truncated by it his NAME That us gathered with his memory divide us.
Even if I disagree with her methods, and the majority of her position regarding copyright infringement, I’ve still got to respect the woman herself.
Some interesting reading here regarding Fronk Z’s view on lawyers:
http://crushallboxes.blogspot.com/
TINY IS AS TINY DO …..
Printed on a lot of my old album covers from the 70’s-80’s: “Home taping is killing music”. I don’t think it did!
free as in unchain, not free as in no cost.
I’m sorry, but the truth hurts: the members of the ZPZ “group”, who never played with Zappo, reveal a very limited understanding of the rhythmic complexities of the composer’s works– no matter “how SERIOUS they are about the music”.
This truth must hurt them BADLY–unfortunately.
And here on KUR we can discuss this freely & openly (that shitty tribute band must not like that!). Unlike the lameness of alt.fan-frank-zappa, which has degenerated into a forum of a bunch of “ass-kissers” who would never say anything bad about much of the shoddy-sounding and overly-expensive product issued posthumously by ‘the family’, and the unskillful performances of their ‘authorized(?)’ cover band, especially from the generic-quality backing musicians.
(in their pathetic defense i will say that the posters on affz are afraid that if they make any ‘negative’ comments, then these mixed-quality releases from ‘the family’ will cease all together, which is doubtful.)
Or even worse, these bottom-feeders & glad-handlers have developed a parasitic semi-business arrangement with ‘the family’ and need their ‘approval’ to hawk their own wares & websites and/or their own inflated feelings of ‘self importance’ by proclaiming ‘the family’ has given them their own personal stamp of approval. This is the lameness of the ‘committee’ mentality so brilliantly exposed in “Say cheese’s” post from above.
KUR has no such ‘agendas’ other than to truthfully discuss the man & the music. As a rational and informed individual has the right and ability to do, without the ‘support’ of this group or that.
THE TRUTH HURTS. (that is why often times it is attempted to be suppressed) FIGHT BACK and NEVER GIVE IN.
SUPPORT FREE THOUGHT!
We must save the ‘free society of internet discussion’ before it’s too late.
Roscoe Bledsoe is a fucking moron!!
I guess the TRUTH HURTS, dick-boy!!
Cause your plastic people, oh baby, your such a drag.
The ” scholar” way.
Maybe the Dutch friends or the readers from Atlanta may be helpful.
Just ask Timothy Dowd ( 44) , prof in Rotterdam / NL / EU and Atlanta/ GE/ US ( Emory University).
US:
http://www.sociology.emory.edu/tdowd/
NL:
http://www.eur.nl/nieuws/detail/article/2825/
Be: invited by Belgians ( Poppunt) to discuss matters with youngsters:
http://www.jeugdwerknet.be/nieuws/item/4125
oh yeah, one more thing. I can’t wait to see the RIAA crash and fucking burn. I hate those motherfuckers. They don’t really own the music, musicians who make the music own the music. They are money hungry thieves who are just trying to find people to fuck fans and musicians over. Most musicians apparently hate the RIAA as well because they don’t make enough money on CD sales. I love how it’s legal for the RIAA to control every aspect of a musicians career when they are not writing the songs, playing the instruments, and spending countless hours in recording studios recording their music. The people that they are attacking are the people who truly love music and the RIAA doesn’t know it’s asshole from music. Copyrights are stupid, I think music should be free altogether. Anyone who supports the efforts of the RIAA is a piece of shit as well. Just thought I’d throw that out there. Whatever, hopefully the RIAA will be gone in a few years or so from the lack of CD sales. The letter that Barry recieved actually offends me because I have purchased every single FZ album, as well as T-shirts, posters, and I have seen ZPZ a few times. I have given a shitload of money to the ZFT and one of my favorite FZ websites is attacked by the very people that I gave that money to because they don’t think that they have enough already. The only music that Barry posts on this website are bootleged audience recordings of concerts, which, in my opinion, are not owned by anyone BUT the fans who made them. Official album releases are a different story, but Barry has never (to my knowledge) posted an official release on this website. Also, even though Gail owns the rights to FZ’s catalog, she doesn’t OWN the music, she was not the creative genius who spent countless hours thinking this stuff up. There is only one person that ever lived who could actually make music the way FZ did and that person is FZ. ZFT needs to lay off and think about who they are attacking. They are attacking people who have given them everything they currently have in terms of monetary gain.
Typical, buddy. Blame somebody (or something) else for all the problems in the world.
It’s up to you–yes you (the individual)–to make the change(s)
The Z fans might as well have called in the artists behind Homer Simpson.
The Simpsons. For instance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer_Simpson
Those people did never ever say someting different than “OK, this is Z legacy”.
Just have a look at what they said.
This is the same person who posted messages as Jimmy Carl Black above. I received an e-mail today from Sharleena at KUR saying that I shouldn’t be posing as Jimmy Carl Black unless I am the real JCB. Just for clarification, I am not Jimmy Carl Black, I just used his name because I love his drumming abilities and since I very much support KUR, I would like to apologize to them for using that name since they are under investigation by the ZFT scrutinizers. From now on, I will post as FZ Fan.
Really? You love JCB’s drumming abilities?
I always found his work rather perfunctory. Which songs does he do exceptionally well on?
A mon avis les rancœurs et les frustrations de l’époque des Mothers ne demande qu’à réapparaître. F.Z n’as servie que sa musique au détriment des sensibilité de ses musiciens. A tort où à raison, mais sa musique demande un renouvellement perpétuel, et là ou l’individu ressort pressé comme un citron , le meilleur sert alors de nourriture à nos oreilles avides de son. Je ne pense pas que FZ à traité ses musiciens comme du bétail, mais certain l’on cru, comme certain pense que la fédération Zappa n’attend de la part des Fans simplement le fait de remplir les caisses de dollars. Cette situation n’est pas une des meilleures et la division déjà consommé, va consumé le reste.
With my opinion rancours and frustrations of the time of Mothers only requires to reappear. F.Z were used only its music for the detriment of the sensitivity of its musicians. With wrong where rightly, but its music requires a perpetual renewal, and there or the individual arises in a hurry like a lemon, the best is used then as food with our avid ears of sound. I do not think that FZ of treaty his musicians like cattle, but some one believed, as some think that the Zappa federation does not await on behalf of Fans simply the fact of filling the cases with dollars. This situation is not one of best and division already consumed, goes consumed the remainder.
To express my disgust with the ZFT, I have taken up about an hour of my time to go back and return a copy of “Trance Fusion” that I purchased for my bro-in-law. Last year, I gave out 5 copies. This year will be a non-fz Christmas for myself and loved ones.
“No Sale for you!”
i got hit with a letter from zft, too. i love frank and i but the legit product as often as i can but i also know, from talking to younger folks who really dig music, that franks work is not reaching a younger audience. they need to let some musicians or celebrities curate some playlists or collections or something to help newcomers make their way through his catalog…like i trlied to do for my readers with a mixtape (which i only leave up for 7 – 14 days and then they go “out of print”). oh well, its their business, but its sad. here is my original blog post and the letter from zft
To Kevin Hoover, JCB wasn’t one of Zappa’s best drummers and his style was relatively simple from a technical standpoint, however, he did have a unique sound that he brought to the Mothers. His drums tones were very thick and full and it sounds like he used very heavy drum sticks with his toms, floor tom, and bass drums tuned down just a little for a deeper sound. For the most part though, Zappa knew how to pick his drummers, since he started on the drums himself and knew the sound he was looking for.
hi dervish,
sorry to hear that… though sharing official releases doesn’t sem to be a really good idea…
hey burning dervish? did you mixtape consist of offical material?? If so, good on the ZFT. YOU shouldn’t be giving that away.
That’s it, I’ve had just about enough of this.
I am returning all of my Zappa CDs, Cassettes and LPs to the Z*T.
Including my original copy of Freak Out which I bought in 1966.
I’ll show ’em. They can’t push ME around!!!
I may even throw in a couple of Varese albums while I’m at it!
I used to think it was fair use, but upon investigating further, at least in the good ole U.S.A., you are breaking the law, according to the RIAA. As the music industry finds itself in the hands of fewer, but larger corporations, the legislation currently being passed is giving far more rights to these so-called copyright holders and further weakening the concept of “fair use” as a justifiable defense. When it suddenly illegal to burn the CD you just bought onto your computer so you can listen to it on your iPod or other mp3 player is plainly ridiculous. I see the current actions as an outright attack on the concept of fair use. Just look at the chilling effect it has had on other websites and weblogs to see my point.
Don’t be wadiciwous! Give ’em all to me! Especially the original copy of Freak Out which you bought in 1966. That’ll show ’em! Even the Varese albums. I’m not picky.
Ha, you won’t get busted for weed anymore, you’ll get busted for having Maxell XL90’s!
Wow. I would be speechless but I am afraid I am not surprised. The “official” and “Real ___ ____ Page” website doesn’t give hardly ANY information about new releases…ever. It’s just a joke. They offer up rehearsal tapes but don’t give you any idea that this is what they are selling! So, I had to rely on wonderful fan sites such as KUR to find out just wtf the ZFT is peddling! What a way to run a bizness!
If it wasn’t for fan websites I might not have dove back into Zappa’s music in recent years…this site being a main catalyst. The official website annoyed me and still does to no end. I mean, educate the masses by explaining what his releases are about! Write essays on why his music was so incredible…FZ’s legacy is fading and they don’t do the most simple things – celebrate and explain, and offer up space for fans to chat – like here at KUR!! It is so simple, and most every band does this.
And, most every band knows that free publicity is golden, and mp3’s are not. But, mp3s are free advertising. I love the Friday Boots but I mostly only listen to official albums…In fact, I plan on buying many more FZ cds…KUR makes me want to do this!!! The dreaded drug using Grateful Dead let their fans tape their shows and became even larger of a cult band, and sold out arenas by word of mouth, mostly through the tape grapevine and fans saying “see, this is why I go!” Well, now, hundreds of bands do the same thing, and they play at fests such as Bonnaroo, and these bands then get fans to go see them on tour…it’s a simple bizness plan, which I’m sure Frank would’ve seen as at least a viable way to go if not one he would endorse..
Either way, studies show that mp3’s actually increase cd buying! The ZFT is indeed making things worse for themselves, not better.
I’ll go see Dweezil 100 more times and I’ll keep buying FZ cds, but I won’t endorse this type of ridiculous behavior by the “powers that be!”
Long Live Frank. And, Long Live KUR!!!!
Peace.
Suddenly law enforcement won’t be tasering suspects, instead they’ll be tasering their car stereos, home computers, mp3 players, cell phones…
This is absurd. I do believe that Gail is a good case for a psycho-analysis – I think she has some deep-seated inferiority complexes / jelousy towards Knarf Appaz’s fans.
My full support for KUR.
Is something burning somewhere?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIvQQXGyr3A
Si cela peu vous rassurer en France nous commençons à subir le marasme d’une politique spectacle avec notre nouveau Président Nicolas Sarkozi, qui nous en promet des bonnes et surtout de belles surprises . Il se racole les grands artistes du spectacle français pour un grand show médiatique , passant par le pouvoir et le fric, les classes seront de plus en plus diviser , les injustices et les conflits sociaux vont finir par éclater à cause d’un laxisme d’une gauche et de l’immobilisme de Chirac. Les autres politiques ne sont pas mieux, chacun tire la couverture au détriment de la masse salariale. Je ne suis pas un communiste, ni un syndicaliste, ni un musicien professionnel, simplement un employé d’une société passionné par l’œuvre de Frank Zappa et guitariste à mes heures perdues. J’ai acheter petit à petit ses albums et je suis fier de ma collection. Je ne connais le site que depuis un mois et j’ai pu écouter des concert de Frank dont je n’aurais jamais pu m’y rendre. J’ai 49 ans et à l’époque ou Frank Zappa c’est produit en France il n’était pas mon artiste préférer et mes finances ne dictait de faire des choix. C’est depuis six ans que j’ai replonger dans l’œuvre de Frank Zappa, achetant tout les livres, les Cd, les Dvd suivant mes finances. Ce qui arrive aujourd’hui m’attriste, on se déchire sur l’œuvre et le souvenir de Frank Zappa le mois de sa disparition à quelques jours de Noël. Je ne pense pas qu’il se lisse sa moustache avec son œil rieur en ce moment, le dépit doit se lire sur son visage. A frank
If that little to reassure you in France we start to undergo the stagnation of a policy spectacle with our new President Nicolas Sarkozi, who promises to us the maid and especially of beautiful surprises. He solicits the large artists of the French spectacle for a great media show, passing by the capacity and the fric, the classes will be more and more to divide, the injustices and the social conflicts will end up bursting because of a laxism of a left and immobilism of Chirac. The other policies are not better, each one draws the cover with the detriment from the wage bill. I am a Communist, neither a trade unionist, nor a professional musician, simply an employee of a company impassioned by the work of Frank Zappa and guitarist at my lost hours. I have to gradually buy his albums and I am proud of my collection. I have known the site only for one month and I could listen to concert of Frank of which I could never have returned to me there. I am 49 years old and at the time or Frank Zappa it is produced in France it was not my artist to prefer and my finances did not dictate to make choices. It has been for six years that I have replonger in the work of Frank Zappa, buying all the pounds, Cd, Dvd following my finances. What arrives today saddens me, one tears on the work and the memory of Frank Zappa the month of his disappearance at a few Christmas Days. I do not think that it smoothes its moustache with its merry eye in this moment, the spite must be read on his face.
With frank
For everyone’s information, here’s the guilty party (and if I could find it this easily, why couldn’t Gail’s lawyers?). Makes one wonder what was the real reason behind the cease and desist letter. Hmmmm.
http://uglyradio.blogspot.com/2006/09/mothers-of-invention.html
Does anyone reckon this could be a case of mistaken identity???
If so, fills you with confidence, don’t it?
Gee, I wonder if Frank’s rendition of Petroushka is how the composer intended it?
Just another one?
The oldest color photograph ever taken? It’s ( you are looking at the birth of color photography seven years after the American Civil War)
http://www.worldisround.com/articles/2378/photo2.html
The city is Angoulème.
Nowadays : endeavouring to get a reputation as the Capital of the Comic strip.
WOW. I am so touched at the flood of support written above me for KUR. I literally PANICKED when I first logged on and noticed everything was SHUT DOWN! I then read the C&D letter and was not surprised. I just want to stop at this time and thank Barry and KUR from the BOTTOM OF MY HEART for still keeping all my discography reviews that I have been faithfully posting since 2003!!!
Just like “Music is the Best”, I must add KUR is THE BEST!!
Now about the matter at hand: I couldn’t agree more with almost every single poster above. I do understand that Frank was a “Capitalist of the highest order”, but he also would have bent over a million times for a hungry fan. Frank also instinctively knew the fact of life that once a COMPOSER releases his COMPOSITION, there isn’t a law in the world that can truly keep it from being ABSOLUTELY FREE. That said, yes, Frank acted responsibly to protect and control his work(s), but he continually gave more and worked harder than any artist in the 20th century to DELIVER for his fans repeatedly.
Please check out my most recent updated post for the “We’re Only In It For the Money” section to read my REAL THEORY HERE:
No matter how gossipy and E! Network this may sound, there is no doubt that Frank unapologetically enjoyed the WORLD OF GROUPIES throughout the majority of his touring life. If the writings of Pamela “I’m With the Band”/”Let’s Spend the Night Together” Des Barres have any validity, Gail Zappa not only lived to serve Frank submissively their whole life together, she (and this is the really important part) REMAINED SEXUALLY FAITHFUL TO ONLY FRANK THE ENTIRE TIME FRANK WASN’T.
Don’t cha think that can create just a LITTLE RESENTMENT over an entire marriage’s lifetime?
I don’t care how much Gail “stood by her man” or not, she is one VENGEFUL BITCH, because I personally believe that in her warped mind, THE FANS are probably the WOMEN WHO SLEPT WITH FRANK, and the two are interchangeable.
So now, the bitter widow of Frank Zappa KNOWS that she sits on the ENTIRE GOLDMINE of Frank wonderment, and she LOVES THE REVENGEFUL POWER it gives her.
Paybacks are a bitch, aren’t they folks?
C’mon, Gail, get over it. The man made a HUGE contribution to the world, and that has NOTHING to do with who he slept with.
I beseech Gail Zappa and the FZT to just STOP ALREADY!!!
Go Barry and KUR, you represent the ONLY REAL PATRIOTISM LEFT.
Gail turns out to be a Zappa Family Trut anyway then.
Go for it!!!
Anybody remember the trouble FZ got into with the Ravel extate over Bolero and how they were all so unreasonable and crazy… well FZ got his own crazy extate too.
Problem with Gail and ZFT is that they have never been an FZ fan… never had to dig through second hand records to find the as yet unreleased record; never had to fork out lots of money to buy the entire catalogue; hope that he would tour their area; buy expensive magazines to get some tiny bit of info from an interview.
So she may know what FZ like for breakfast but she has no idea about being a real fan and what that entails. Until she does, or listens to people who do she will never understand or do a good job of the ZFT.
The big difference between GZ and the ZFT and your average Freak, is that GZ et al has never sweated out a 40 to 60 hour work week in order to lay down those hard-earned bucks on a FZ album like your average freak does! It’s really sad that they (the ZFT) miss the forest for the trees…
urbangraffito said (hey, how do you use the quote function?):
At least in Canada, for the time being, we have gotten around this authorized/stolen debate by placing a tax on the purchase of CDRs and DVDs (just like the previous tax on cassettes), so that the proceeds of said tax can go to those artists/record companies who feel that their copyright has been infringed. Everybody is happy. For now. Although the US Congress, US Gov’t, and many US corporations are pressuring the Canadian gov’t heavily to change these laws in their favour.
(unquote)
Wikipedia tells me that we in the US have blank media taxes as well — taxes which, incidentally, were opposed by Frank Zappa when proposed in the 1980s, and which he pointed out were the major leverage used by the PMRC to get their agenda taken seriously.
So, not Ben Watson, you’re being criminalized AND taxed at the same time…Jeezus! I stand corrected…
No, gail did not have to work a 40 hour week to be able to afford zappa music.
she had to do it 24 hours a day for 25 years.
I read a quote from her where she reffered to the 25 year marriage as “a joke”. I will reprint it here, (fair use), when I retrieve it tomorrow.
Not sure what she meant by the comment but imagine you get to listen to all of the zappa music you can stand, sitting right next to the guy, BUT you have to live with with him, take care of him and put up with him for all that time.
I don’t know, I can barely tolerate myself half the time, I can’t imagine what it would be like having to put up with frank although it must have been fantastic in certain realms and unbearable in others.
The one item i would purchase from the ZFT without hesitation at this point would be a book entitled: “My Life with Frank”, by Gail Zappa.
I would really have to wonder about somebody who considered their marriage “work” or a “job” or whined about having “to live with with him, take care of him and put up with him for all that time.” There is a release clause in lawyer-speak called divorce.
Thanks for the comments everyone! You all seem to be enchanted by the “Helvetica header”, well credit where credit is due: Dr Sharleena is the one who designed that graphic. The rest of the site’s layout pretty much followed from there. Those little drawings are mine though! All mine! Copyrighted! Just so you know.
Edit:Commented on the wrong post! Duh. Off to re-post…
Right on time! Or you’d have known from my team of lawyers… (thanks everybody!, i’m glad to be of help)
I propose a toast to Dr Sharleena: one “Helvetica” of a Freak!
Cheers!
Aquavit for me, thanks! Wanna share my daily Smörgåsbord? Skål!
Hey, did anybody check the font in that cease and desist letter? You know how sneaky lawyers are with their fine print and such. They might’ve copyrighted/trademarked the Helvetica font without us even knowing…
IT CAN’T HAPPEN HERE AT KUR!!!
I will always be by your side.
EVERYBODY STOP.
THIS IS ABOUT MUSIC.
or at least it started that way.
And the most intelligent comment so far is whoever said (sorry paraphrasing)
Can we all pleas remember to give Frank the dignity of acting as if he were in the room , without saying things one wouldn’t say in his direct prescence?
I know I respect him that much.
Since when did Frnk Zpp ever self-censor himself or his thoughts? Should we expect than from his fans? And, besides, isn’t that exactly what is going here: one party attempting to censor the thoughts, ideas, and expression of another using Frnk Zpp’s legacy as the excuse to do so?
I don’t speak for Frnk Zpp. I wouldn’t know how and would try in the first place. I’m sure no one else at KUR would either. It’s just too preposterous to give any serious thought. What isn’t preposterous, though, is freely giving up your freedoms so somebody else can make a buck.
SHIT, Barry, you know i’m not a FAN of Fronk Zippo. That’s why i haven’t found it useful to post anything until now. I want to join your crowd in supporting you, my friend.
Fronk Zippo doesn’t do it for me. You know i’ve tried to open up to his music and (read this ZFT!) EVEN BOUGHT A “strictly commercial” CD trying to understand what the fuss is all about. It was all a bit in vein, the music stays a bit unaccessable to me. Maybe some of your posters will now try to convert me in some way: tell them not to bother.
I am here strictly as a friend. I think it’s unfair that the ZFT does this to you, or to any other real fan for that matter. I know you started this site out of love for the music.
The line in the letter that bothers me the most is “The widespread use by your website of Frank Zappa’s name and likeness for commercial purposes also violates California right of publicity.”
What commercial purposes? This is not a COMMERCIAL UNDERTAKING. You never made any profit out of this. This is an enthusiast’s site, a platform for fans to share experiences and information about someone they admire. Nobody is trying to rip the ZFT off here, nobody is causing any damage: people are keeping fuckin’ Fronk Zippo alive here!
Let’s take a look at other geniuses attitudes, shall we? Did anyone know there are more star-wars films around, not made by lucasfilm than the six official ones? Check out theforce.net. Fans take the stuff George lucas created and make their own movies, using the Star Wars logo’s, characters etc etc. And every year there’s an award for those who made the best movie in that year, sometimes handed over by the great Mr. Lucas himself.
Smart man this. He knows that these people “pay tribute” to his creation. He knows that these are the folks that stand in line somewhere outside of some big shopping mall, waiting to be the first to get the latest remastered edition of the films they’ve seen a thousand times already. They don’t harm his business, they keep it alive.
Same goes for a site called “capedwonder.com” that pays tribute to the late Christopher Reeve. Enough of the geekiness though. As long as you are not COMMECIALLY EXPLOITING someone’s image or creation, you’re only paying tribute to them.
I sincerely hope, Barry, that you’ll find some way to settle this problem so you can truly start enjoying your website and it’s community again.
Greetz to Gabz,
Fronk D.
Marcus: as I’ve mentioned before, I too wish for the discussion here to remain civil and on topic. However this is not about music. It’s about whether a not-for-profit fansite which does not seek, and never has sought commercial or financial gain, can legally be prohibited to host thumbnail images in a discography page, to have a header graphic sporting a Frnk Zpp picture, to post Zpp quotes and long-out-of-print interviews or articles — to even mention the name Frnk Zpp. That’s what this is about.
Fronk D! Thanks for stepping up and joining the conversation! Remind me to give you a mix-tape so as to convince you of the genius of Frnk Zpp — oh wait, I better not.
Say hi to M. & the kids for us.
“Since when did Frnk Zpp ever self-censor himself or his thoughts? Should we expect than from his fans? And, besides, isn’t that exactly what is going here: one party attempting to censor the thoughts, ideas, and expression of another using Frnk Zpp’s legacy as the excuse to do so?”
No, we don’t want anyone censored. That’s kind of what this whole imbroglio is about.
The other side of that is that if some of these posters were sitting at a table with Frank and Gail talking about these issues, there might be a frank exchange of views, so to speak, without calling any of the Zappas things like “bitch” and “cunt.”
I’m guessing that more valid information would be transacted without that kind of rhetorical behavior, and that’s all I was trying to say.
Fronk D., you may not be a FAN of Fronk Zippo, but you sound very much like a FREAK. Smart man, you.
I am going to quote Homer Simpson
DOH
Keep up the good work KUR
I hope my walls at home are safe
Ok, I’m not done. In fact, I’m still hopping mad. The last few posts have that “c’mon guys, let’s not call F and G NAMES, that’s just mean and rhetorical”.
In my opinion, fans of Frk are VERY INTELLIGENT, INSIGHTFUL and even PHILOSOPHICAL folks. Their intuition kicks in eons before other “fans” of any particular artist does. The genuine passion evident in every “bad name” posted above is a testament to the love we all have for Frk’s music.
I really don’t think every poster hates G as a person, rather her hurtful ACTIONS. I also think that everyone who knows about Frk and his family history should have seen this kind of stuff coming ever since he left our earth.
The poster above who succinctly stated that “Frks best work was not his family” is spot on. I am also downright FASCINATED by the above poster who quoted G as stating that “my marriage was a joke”. There is no doubt that Frk “family life” was quite unconventional, to say the least. I do believe that Frk “loved” his family in a very clear-cut, compartmentalized and especially patriarchial way. But NO ONE knew Frank but Frank, and Frank obviously kept it that way in every part of his life. OK, all you armchair psychiatrists out there can now insert the ol’ observation that Frk’s original family moved him around so much that he never could TRUST anyone, or that he was a CONTROL FREAK because he lived a childhood where he had so little control over anything (much less consistent, REAL friends), but I think all that is self evident by this time.
Today, we have (in my opinion) a very clear-cut problem: pay close attention to the “Classic Albums” DVD when Dwee talks about “finding out that your dad is the coolest guy in the world”. Note that only after Frk’s DEATH was Dwee able to find this out by having unfettered access to “the Vlt”, NOT from the MAN HIMSELF.
I think Frk kept ALL ASPECTS of his life a BUSINESS TRANSACTION because of the time ol’ “don’t wanna get hurt again” thing that all human beings know all too well.
SO–is anyone surprised that the FZT “family” has NO CLUE as how to truly respect, love, appreciate and savor the REAL LOVE that all of Frk’s fans have felt coming out of their speakers and from stages for so many years. The “family” has never FELT THE LOVE like the fans have, because they are all deeply hurt, abandoned and resentful emotionally because they pined for it all of Frk’s life while he always gave it to the WORLD first. It’s the classic American story: workaholic dad is married to his job FIRST, job is SO ARTISTICALLY IMPORTANT that the family gets ignored but the WORLD LOVES THE MAN.
Man dies.
Family owns man’s life’s work.
WORLD GETS SCREWED, family gets rich.
ALL ARE STILL UNHAPPY.
MarcoJ, I think you are spot on with your analysis of the available facts. It really does come down to a want for love doesn’t it? If “we” don’t love the man on “her” terms, she going to pick up all the marbles (vault) and go home.
i was looking for the article where GZ comments on her marriage with FZ and could not find it.
But i found this instead. GZ Grew up in New Mexico and was friends with Jim Morrison. Once when they were 5 years old she got into a fight with him and him him on the head with a hammer.
Also from the same 1996 article: “RYKO and I have agreed to a joint venture on the material that’s in the vault. And, actually, I’m looking forward to that because we’ve been soliciting wish lists. We’re gonna go through those and decide what would be a cool release”.
Hmmm, I wonder how those wish lists are coming along???
I’ve made my way through a number (but not all) of the previous 350+ comments…boy, that was long!
From one Another to a Barry, I must say that I can’t say enough to thank you for all the service that you’ve provided for us here in the past and (undoubtedly) will in the future! While I sympathize with the Zappas in their interest of keeping Frank’s legacy in their control, I can’t help but think that they have done little to nothing to help their business. It’s not smart business to cut off free promotion. It is ENTIRELY thanks for KUR and THE CHROME DINETTE (hell, I still have that bookmarked) that I ever became a Frank Zappa fan–if ZPT feel I qualify as one–in the first place. Actually, there’s one other site that had a large part to play in my introduction, but I worry that even mentioning it will doom it to a similar legal situation. Thanks to the otherwise impossible to hear bootlegs, I was able to gain enough interest in Zappa to buy his music. I have at least 10 albums and a few DVDs right now, and wouldn’t have any if not for these pages.
I think it would be well in the Zappa Family’s favor to embrace these fan-sites as a means of entrance into the public sector. KUR is the best example of fan-to-fan support that I have seen. To me, at least, KUR is where I come for NEW Frank Zappa information. They care here, and find out information quickly because they’re in constant communication with other fans. A huge network of Zappa fanatics informing one another…is word of mouth really horrible for business?
If ZPT wants to justify the removal of helpful websites, they better improve their own. Personally, I wouldn’t even want to try and find information on Zappa.com. It’s not all that informative anyway.
So Barry, thanks. I look forward to seeing what is next in KUR history. My appreciation continues!
The positve way to think of this is:
Rights on dead people’s music only last for 25 years. So were half way there:)
Err… I don’t think so. You should check the Ravel’s Boléro case for instance.
Published around 1928-1929 it fell in the public domain in 1988 in Japan and Canada. It should be the same in 2008 for the European countries except France. And it should be 2023-2024 for the USA and 2016 in France.
Oh, guys, I really feel as strong as ever in my last hypothesis about this situation: think of THE FANS (en masse) as the “Other Woman” in Frk’s life who KEPT HIM from his FAMILY.
I truly believe that’s how G views the fans of Frk’s music.
SO–frk’s death was like a strange DIVORCE, in which both EX’x are “fighting” for the estate, because….
BOTH LOVED THE MAN and consider themselves the REAL FAMILY.
Whew.
I think you’re taking this analogy a bit far MarcoJ. I mean, “fighting over the estate, because…”
Zpp fans fully acknowledge that Frnk formed the ZFT to benefit his family after his passing. About this there can be no doubt.
What does cause some of us to scratch our heads in wonder is why anyone would see this website as a threat?
US Copyright Law:
Duration of copyright is 70 years after the death of the author or 120 years if the work was created for hire as in those created by a corporation. So franks music still has another 57 years before it is in the public domain.
Although, a skillfull attorney couldargue that the music was created by a corporation, the ZFT which is a private company, and therefore the 120 year duration would apply.
Excellent. I am therefore currently preparing the next Friday Show for December 2127. Doesn’t do any harm to be prepared….
That would be December 5, 2127.
This should be a very dynamite show.
Perhaps Dweezil Zappa III and ZPZ, live from Mars.
Live from Hell, more like. Nah, just kidding Dweez.
It’s true I was really running with my “divorce” analogy. But I defend the basic idea of it by recalling Frk’s insistence that GZ get “out of the business”. Frk’s family would still have been “taken care of” if Gl continued to make wise business decisions on behalf of the Vlt and its contents. Contrary to what many posters may interpret as a “Barry Miles Zappa biography” view of Frk as a father and family man (Miles was downright scathing in ripping Frk apart in part two of his crappy book), I have no doubt that Frk truly loved his family and the prime physical representation of that love was that he took care of them (define it as you will). My only main point was that Frk did unfortunately keep “walls” up (again, define it as you will) between himself and just about everyone else on the earth in many areas. Frk was the man who repeatedly stated “I have no friends”. My theory just posits that it is possible Frk’s family always had an emotionally difficult time reconciling the brilliant, obsessive hermit that worked in the basement when home in between tours and interviews with a person they were always hoping would one day fill the shoes of the traditional “dad”/”husband”. I know and believe that Frk loved his family and took care of them, however I do believe that it is arguable that most Frk Freaks out in the world possess a passion that would easily lend itself to a rationalization of being just as much a part of Frk’s family as his own blood wife and kids were.
Especially when their means of communication and sharing the love is threatened with C & D letters.
Ce qui m’étonne c’est qu’un pays qui ce veux le fer de lance de la protection artistique, prônant le respect de la propriété fout le merde dans l’extrême orient ( vous me direz quand France nous avons le champion de la gigue) . Ce qui m’étonne encore plus c’est que le principe et l’attitude de Frank Zappa était de rejeter toute complicité dans l’attitude politique mercantile de son pays, il nous à prouver de sa sincère rébellion contre le système qui défend les intérêts de sa famille aujourd’hui. Je me pose le question si Frank Zappa était un artiste certes brillant mais incompris , débutant sa carrière en 2007 comment se passerai celle ci dans un futur non certain. Est ce que la législation et le droit protecteur qui sévit aujourd’hui lui permettrai de composer comme il l’as fait jadis. Est ce que justement ou injustement certaine personne bien intentionné ne lui aurait il pas couper l’herbe sous ses pieds, et surtout quelle attitude aurait il eu. Vous me direz avec des si , le monde ne serait pas se que l’on veux bien en faire.
What astonishes to me is that a country which it want the spearhead of artistic protection, preaching the respect of the property fout the shit in Far East (you will say to me when France we have the champion of the gigue). What astonishes me still more it is that the principle and the attitude of Frank Zappa were to reject any complicity in the political attitude mercantile of its country, it us to prove his sincere rebellion against the system which defends the interests of its family today. I put myself the question if Frank Zappa were a misunderstood artist certainly shining but, beginning his career in 2007 how will happen that Ci in a future not some. Is what the legislation and the protective duty which prevails today will allow him to compose as it did formerly. Is what precisely or wrongfully certain person quite disposed would not have to him it not to cut the grass under her feet, and especially which attitude it would have had. You will say to me with Si, the world would not be that one want to make some well.
Hello – I am the founder and band-leader of Project/Object – a USA based Zappa repertoire band that has been playing since at least the early 90s. MOst of you know all about us and have been tremendously supportive, in three countries that we have played so far and BEYOND. Thanks– and I hope to meet everyone of you, as we always have a great time rapping about Zappa’s amazing music.
Gail has gone after my band , and personally attacked me in emails, for years now. Well — only 2 or 3 emails, and maybe 8 or 10 threats thru he lawyers, letters that look just like the one reproduced on zappa.com regarding this mess.
Don’t fall for it!! She may be right on the details this time– but she is a hateful person, Read any of her interviews, she always has to leave some nasty remarks in between he fake portrayal of herself as a “champion of the Zappa coat of arms”. Nonsense.
Ask yourself why dozens of ex-Zappa players, from Ike Willis on down — wnat NOTHING to do with her. Where are they?? Can you think of another artist who died…and his ex-players are cut off, shut out and insulted like Dweezil and Gail have done to so many of them??
She is currently trying to sue several people in at least 3 countries. She must have lost even more money on the ZPZ tour than I initially heard…
Listen to Frank. If you paid for teh CDS and LPs — it is your right in most countries to make copies. Make them, and lend them (don;t give ) to your friends, as many friends as you can. This will spread the music — and stay within the law. If you are a musician — learn some Zappa and add it to your set.
there is NOTHING gail zappa can do if you don;t charge admission money. And — if you DO– make sure the venue has paid whatever dues are required in your country — GEMA, ASCAP, BMI, etc.
Viva La Zappa Revolucion!!!!
I, urbangraffito, am in no way related to Frnk Zpp or any member of his family. I just dig the man’s mind, as well as the man’s music. As for his family: what they do is their business. Speaking of “their” business, the T-shirt my son bought at the recent ZPZ concert was made in Honduras. Does that make the ZFT free traders? Can we imagine sweat shops in Honduras making Frnk Zpp paraphernalia? Does that make GZ a Democrat or a Republican? Is their really a difference when it comes to business? Aren’t we all just “little people” to them anyway?
Good to see Andre weighing in – he and his band mates of done an incredible service to FZ’s music over the last 10 years, keeping it alive and LIVE in a multitude of venues. Every time they perform, Andre goes OUT OF HIS WAT to credit Frank and, like this website has, to steer people towards the official product. If only Gail could be made to understand that these activities do not hamper but rather, enhance the FZ legacy and, yes, product line. Ah, well.
Peace to you this holiday season and beyond, Andre. Look forward to seeing you and P/O again soon!
my earlier comments were in anger and defence of a loved place on the net . I think the ZFT is trying to act in the best intrest of FZ .
Also , please it is FZ or Frank Zappa. Not Zippo or something else.
I’ve just found on zappa.com’s forum – Moon’s voice on 818-pumpkin:
Just don’t do it online, though.
Myself, I’d like to make a donation in Frank’s name to my own favourite cause: fair use.
Gail hateful?
I don’t know.
But there is an interview with Jimmy Carl Black where he stated that he would rather be in a room with a rattlesnake than with Gail because he would stand a better chance of coming out alive with a rattlesnake.
jane23, you’ve no doubt heard the joke about why snakes won’t bite lawyers…professional courtesy.
Blog press review:
http://www.musiksnobs.de/wp/?p=85
http://blogger.xs4all.nl/werksman/archive/2007/12/20/335180.aspx
http://morningmaniacmusic.blogspot.com/2007/12/gail-zappa.html
http://crushallboxes.blogspot.com/2007/12/dont-be-lawyer-december-21-2007.html
Want to read more reactions to the C&D letter we received? Check my del.icio.us account. This thing even made it to the Prince.org forums — that’s sayin’ something…
meanwhile on wall street. That barritone wo-man she is not your friend. Pass me the dog food. Arf.
Remember there is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over. If anyone is interested in trading Zappa Shows drop me an email. I need more. So do you and other related artists, especially those
Go see Project Object in 08. Its a way of life and you’ll love it.
Whats for GSloat next- ZAppafrank. you must come down from the that milky way.
Some very interesting reactions, Barry. The most interesting, though, are those from other Frnk Zpp related websites. Seems there are a lot of folks who think that this can’t possibly happen to them or their site (…if it hasn’t happened by now…or, if we brown nose enough perhaps we’ll be left alone…please). Tsk, tsk. When one’s head is in the sand you can’t see what’s coming…
Andre Cholmondeley says:
December 20th, 2007 at 11:38 pm
Gail has gone after my band , and personally attacked me in emails, for years now. Well — only 2 or 3 emails, and maybe 8 or 10 threats thru he lawyers, letters that look just like the one reproduced on zappa.com regarding this mess.
Don’t fall for it!! She may be right on the details this time– but she is a hateful person, Read any of her interviews, she always has to leave some nasty remarks in between he fake portrayal of herself as a “champion of the Zappa coat of armsâ€. Nonsense.
Ask yourself why dozens of ex-Zappa players, from Ike Willis on down — wnat NOTHING to do with her. Where are they?? Can you think of another artist who died…and his ex-players are cut off, shut out and insulted like Dweezil and Gail have done to so many of them??
— Read on, Ike Willis:
“In the Fall of ’93, when I talked to Frank on the phone, I knew that the cancer was inoperable and was terminal,” said Willis. “He really started getting weak and very tired. He told me, “Ike if you have any travel plans in the near future, I suggest you come down and see me, things are getting close and I want to talk to you before it’s too late.”
“A week before Thanksgiving I went down to visit him and had a long talk. I’ve always had my own band, and Frank was always one of my biggest fans and supporters as far as doing my own material. He taught me how to be an effective producer, performer and had always given me permission to play some of his tunes. That last time I saw him, he basically said, “Ok, I still give you permission to play whatever you want, make sure it’s okay with Gail (Zappa) first. Go Ye forth and Kick Ass. Go for the gusto Ike, if you can keep it alive, go ahead and do it, ’cause I can’t do it anymore.” Essentially that was the deal, the way it was said. It’s not like Ike Willis is trying to be Frank Zappa, there’s no way I can do it, all I can do is go out on stage, do the same thing that I had been doing with him before. He hired me to be his frontman, he wrote those tunes for me to sing and play. That’s what I’m doing to keep it alive, to keep these things going. The day I got home, I get a call from Roddie Gilliard, the leader of The Muffin Men, asking if I would consider fronting on their European tour. They weren’t just a bunch of guys trying to play Frank Zappa tunes, but were actually being faithful to the arrangements and were musically pulling it off. In the middle of the Muffin tour, Reinhard, a diehard Zappa fan who started Muffin Records in Stuttgart said to me “Look Ike, is there a way you could get hold of enough of the former band, to see if they would do a couple of European tribute gigs?” That’s how Utopia came together. I called the guys, and it snowballed. The band was assembled. A couple of times we had to stop in the middle of rehearsals ’cause we were getting a bit misty-eyed. Remember, we recorded this stuff, the original versions and we were playing it just like we were supposed to play it. It was sounding the way it was supposed to sound and the only person missing was Frank. It really brought it home that he wasn’t there. We were going, “Man he should be here, he should really hear this shit because it’s just tremendous.”
Read the entire article at:
http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/Saint_Zappa%2C_Halloween_Idyll
Thanks, guys. I am just another fan, I happen to play the music. Isn’t this wild– Someone/Something has shut down the zappa.com forum…coincidence???
I am dedicating 2008 – -the 20th Anniversary of the Last Zappa Tour– to Calling Gail Zappa on her bullshit. I’m tired of it– and tired of watching other people suffer thru it. For the record — I was kicked off the Zappa.com forum yesterday — no surprise— because I called her out on some stuff. Here is the post I wrote — just so it’s out of her webmaster’s reach.
Don’t be fooled by her, people. JCB is right– “Rattlesnake” is kind. She has wasted a lot of people’s time with her wacky actions. She has NO CLUE about music copyright as it applies to 21st century technology. At this point — any SANE person in charge of an artist’s music would WORK WITH the people providing FREE publicity on the web. Barry and anyone else, myself included, would have been more than happy to work with the ZFU if Gail was anywhere near civil. Here’s the post that got me kicked off the forum:
It IS peculiar, Gail, You have fucked with all of us forever in the Zappa-Tribute band world, for what it’s worth– -when all we are doing is trying to do WHAT FRANK ASKED in his last message, read by Moon.
it IS PECULIAR when you waste so much time and money suing and threatening people like me and other band leaders worldwide — and go after the Zappanale , the Hungarian orchestra people, people in Universities doing non-profit shows…whoever. When all we do is GIVE YOU PUBLICITY!!! and plug your albums onstage — and remind people to turn others onto the music…. and talk about your damn site, and on and on.
And quit your fucking rhetoric about people “making a living off Frank’s music” — I know most of the people doing this– and EVERYONE has a goddamn day-job — myself included..and we ALL finance the goddamn attempts to help you and your fellow heirs by presenting the music. Touring is hard, expensive and not for anyone who doesn’t…..just enjoy playing. Very few tours turn a profit. (as I’m sure you know as your sales were OFF this time… which may be behind the rash of legal attacks wherever you can sic your lawyers…)
It’s PECULIAR that you have made agreements with artists, foundations, musicians of all stripes — and then fucked them at the last minute with your wild, inexplicable and cryptic style of “communication”
You’ve left a horrible taste in the mouth of a lot of people, let me report back to you on that. People support Zappa’s music and ALWAYS WILL./.. inspite of you and your attacks on people.
Go ahead, send me another nasty, condescending email. I sleep at night ‘cos i hear about all the hateful crap you do to people, and don’t worry — many many people are documenting your counter-productive efforts to get back at Frank. I’m completely unimportant in all this and I delight in knowing that you have wasted so much money on me with your lawyers. It’s awesome. I lost $1700 thanks to you on a recent tour — and it was worth every penny knowing that you FAILED to keep us off the road.
I don’t ever need to play another NOTE of Frank Zappa’s music. It’s been GRAVY for ages — since my goal has long been achieved. I got many of the alumni out on the road—pulled a few out of retirement—very proud of that. I’ve played Zappa music to thousands and thousands of TEENS and young people who never had the chance to see the music — waaay before you finally saw fit to launch the ZPZ. Yep, sorry, we beat ya to it. I’ve done this for 10-12 years — it’s been awesome. I have people who started seeing Project/Object (a name you can’t stop me from using) when they were TWEENS…now they are young adults. And they’ve spent a bunch of money catching up– and funding your ridiculous, scattershot legal efforts.
Sadly, you have a point in defending illegal sales of recordings etc — But you have sooo wrecked your karma with everyone — and have sooo many people in power who hate how you do business — that when you are actually on track — it’s lost in the sauce.
One day – maybe – you’ll realize you have alienated everyone in the Zappa camp except for a few sycophantic kiss-asses. Maybe you’ll realize.
How many alumni will talk to you now??? Out of hundreds?? How many hold bitter memories of your treatment of them 30, 20, 10 or 1 year(s) ago?? Could they ALL BE WRONG???
C’mon. Answer this stuff if you dare. Why don’t the other people close to Frank’s endorse, support and cheer on what you are doing??? Why don’t countless alumni line up to be involved in your ventures?? It’s them,right?
Tell us.
(that’s for you , Gail. NOTHING you can do about this. Get a Life — and like FRANK asked — sell the house and leave us all alone!!)
Jeez, I just came across this post today.
So sad to read all this. First Prince, now Zappa?
After a recent Frank Zappa listening session, the following lyric seems appropriate to the current circumstances:
You are hopeless
Your hopelessness
Is rising around you, rising around you
You like it
It gives you something to do
In the day time
Hey buddy, you need a hobby
You are tired of moving forward
You think of the future
And secretly you piddle your pants
The puddle of piddle
Which used to be little
Is rising around you, rising around you
You like it
It gives you something to do
In the night time
— “The Blue Light,” Tinsel Town Rebellion, 1981.
But before someone starts shouting that the sky is falling like Chicken Little, and that I’m infringing ZFT copyright by posting these lyrics here, I checked out the legal definition of fair use first (in the good old U.S.A. I may add…beware, it’s a tad heady):
107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use
Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include —
(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.
113. Scope of exclusive rights in pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works
(a) Subject to the provisions of subsections (b) and (c) of this section, the exclusive right to reproduce a copyrighted pictorial, graphic, or sculptural work in copies under section 106, includes the right to reproduce the work in or on any kind of article, whether useful or otherwise.
(b) This title does not afford, to the owner of copyright in a work that portrays a useful article as such, any greater or lesser rights with respect to the making, distribution, or display of the useful article so portrayed than those afforded to such works under the law, whether title 17 or the common law or statutes of a State, in effect on December 31, 1977, as held applicable and construed by a court in an action brought under this title.
(c) In the case of a work lawfully reproduced in useful articles that have been offered for sale or other distribution to the public, copyright does not include any right to prevent the making, distribution, or display of pictures or photographs of such articles in connection with advertisements or commentaries related to the distribution or display of such articles, or in connection with news reports.
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107
It looks like Statler & Waldorf, http://movies.go.com/muppets/( cfr. The Muppet Show) leaving their balcony and being constructive.
The zappa dot com forum is still being funny…threads and posts vanishing left right and centre. Hehehehe.
The solution here is to give Gail exactly what she wants: Cease all representation of her dead ex here. No pictures, no posts, no more mention whatsoever of the F-word. Let her see how that serves his Estate.
Yeah -it’s real messed up at zappa.com’s forum.
First — let me agree with anyone saying “It’s GZ’s RIGHT to delete anything and anyone — the ZFT set up the forum, so, that’s that.
That is clearly so. But – the question is–why make the whole thing bigger by over-reacting. Classic. Zealots never realize that when they crack down like this, they confirm what has been said.
Anyway -Here’s a wrapup of just SOME of the stuff flowing out from ZFT (yes, along with all the great stuff like tours, CDs and DVDs. Take the Bad with the Good)
1. Thomas Dippel and the Zappanale have been served with papers — they have a German court date.
He has been served with an official summons by County Court of Dusseldorf, for a court hearing in April 2008.
Gail is saying they illegally use the trademark “Zappanale” and the Zappanale logo, based on the moustache (you know – the moustache that no one in history ever had, not even some of the other Mothers, right on the FREAK OUT cover and elsewhere.)
Gail went after Zappanale this August as has been reported elsewhere, for their involvement promoting the Berlin Zappa-strasse (street naming). The Zappanale has reached to her continually, and invited her more than once. There’s never a positive response, sometime no response at all. So – don’t buy into this nonsense about “people need to ask permission”
As part of the threats this summer, Gail also demanded …the removal and destruction of the likeness of Frank Zappa in Bad Doberan.
Yes, you read right — she wanted them to destroy a piece of fine art, a bust of Frank, that people flock to see and take pictures next to, etc — that the town was conscious enough to approve and provide a prominent spot for. Destroy a harmless piece of art. She wanted it replaced with “something we (ZFT) do approve”.
When the statue was dedicated and placed in 2002, some of the people at the amazing ceremony were: Don Preston, Jimmy Carl Black, Bunk Gardner, Roy Estrada, Ike Willis, Napoleon Murphy Brock, Mike Keneally, Candy Zappa, Bobby Zappa, Ed Palermo and Nigey Lennon. I can’t speak for any of them, but they all seemed delighted and honored to be a part of the event, as we all were.
2. Gail (or her hunchmen) called the Ike Willis/URR gig AT THE VENUE on Friday 21 Dec 2007 — they were at the gig ready to go, the owner panicked a bit of course, but I reassured him of how ridiculous the attempt is — as long as he was up to date on ASCAP etc (he was), and they were not recording or broadcasting the show in any way. But — again this shows where everyone’s well-spent ZPZ money is going.
How is a dinky little show show in a smoky bar in Michigan or Ohio hurting Gail’s copyrights?? This is 100% pure vindictiveness. Nonsense. And yes – I know– she has the right, etc. But IS IT right??
3. Bogus Pomp did a gig Saturday 15 Dec 2007 –in spite of being served with a CEASE & DESIST letter as well. They of course played their gig because they di the research and know that it’s leagl to play Frank’s music. Besides – years ago Gail told them explicity in a letter that they could.
Kudos to the legal team, raking in the dough on wasteful lawsuits!! They know it’s all a waste of time — but would YOU tell a client throwing ZPZ-DVD money around that they are wasting time?? One good thing– if so much of Frank’s hard-earned cash hadn’t been ironically gifted to Al Gore’s campaign in 2000 -there would be even MORE money to waste on frivolous lawsuits.
This shit goes ON AND ON. More news on the way. Lost of people have these same stories and are fed up. We’re gathering them.
Let me make it clear – In my opinion We should all keep supporting the music 100% — but we don’t have to respect the gatekeeper -respect is earned.
Let me also make clear that reporting these statements are approved by the people at Zappanale as well as Bogus Pomp. Everyone is tired of being told how to honor a famous musician. It’s absurd to even engage her bizarre view of how far copyright extends.
Finally -Let me say to anyone who says “this stuff is private” – -Gail Zappa has a public presence and does business in public. The documents and laws she seeks to use against people are public. It’s the world of business that she is dealing in, and that is public.
Gail Zappa and the ZPZ also have a business relationship with Live Nation –and the ONLY two gigs we have ever had cancelled… yes- were in Live Nation rooms. So– yes this is all public action. Information.
Perhaps someday the Zappa Brain Trust Police will come knocking and confiscate my Michael Keropian sculpted 10″ bust of zappa’s head.
Quick, hide, I think someone’s at the door.
Andre Cholmondeley, your points are well made. Having personally researched the same copyright law that GZ and the ZFT is trying to use as a weapon, I see that their actions have little to nothing to do with their rights as copyright holders; but rather, a mean-spirited effort to dictate to others what they may or may not have a right to do already: fair use: by using the coward’s bully tactics of litigation (wherein the one with the deepest pockets usually wins).
I know from a personal perspective, I am really quite disgusted with GZ and the ZFT and their fascistic behavior. After laying down many hard earned dollars over the decades, I really expect more than to be a subsidizer of their law firm, the Democratic Party (aka Al Gore) and California Republicans (in spirit). Can facial hair really be trademarked? Or initials? I don’t think I’m too far off the mark when I call them “The Corporate Trust.”
I wish Zappanale the best of luck in court. It’s about time that these bullies were put in their place and told exactly where their limits are to be found.
As for Bogus Pomp, Project Object, etc.: thanks for keeping the music live in the face of so much hostility…Frank’s music will always be the best.
correct me if i am wrong….but…I read somewhere that Ike was given the ok by F.Z. to keep the music going…to play Zappa’a music….
I took a photo of my wife beside a bronze of – the artist artist formerly know as – in Bad Doberan. Will we both have to go to jail because of that?
I’m waiting for my cease-and-desist letter. Since it hasn’t arrive yet, I’m rolling out my ususal annual FZ™ special to honor his birthday.
BOYCOTT ZFT & ZPZ releases/shows!
(well, until the Roxy DVD comes out–yeah right!)
As analogy, I saw the Peter Gabriel-era Genesis tribute band ‘The Musical Box’ last night. (won free tickets in a contest). It was a superb “recreation” of that time period.
However, the true spark of originality was obviously lacking; and the drummer wasn’t even close to being the player that Phil Collins was– kinda like the same with the ZPZ Travers situation! (compared to these guys, Zpz is strictly “amateur hour”.)
Imo that Zappo bust sculpture is “kinda ugly”: Fronk as ‘Byronic Hero’–don’t think so!– but that has nothing to do with the original albums which should be the ‘real’ legacy.
The bronze is funny. Natives of Bad Doberan asked us during our “photo sessson”, who this is. And we answered, that he was an american composer, musician and guitar player. They answered, they thought it was a farmer from the mountains. (Well, they weren´t that far from it!)
Mo’ news on UM:
http://www.united-mutations.com/123/big_note_files_news.htm#THINK%20YOU%20KNOW%20GZ…
on december 21 1993 i aired an hour long tribute
to frank on cable tv in woodstock NY i called it
the frank zappa memorial barbecue.
it consisted entirely of copyrighted interviews and concert footage.
the ZFT somehow heard about the broadcast and in appreciation sent me a videotape copy of G-Spot tornado and Dogmeat from the yellow shark concerts.
Times have changed.
I’ve been away for the weekend so haven’t visited KUR nor “The Other Forum” until this evening and was very surprised to see that the shit had indeed, hit the fan.
I’ve just spent ages reading through everyones comments here and I have to agree, that it is heartwarming to see so many F____ Z___ fans come out in support of KUR.
Personally, I’ve spent a lot of money over the years building up my collection (in many formats), and at times have ended up living as poor as a very poor church mouse for the remainder of the month because of it.
Now, I can understand her wanting to protect her husbands name and his extensive collection of wonderful work, but as has already been said here, she is alienating the fans in the way she is going about it. Could she not have contacted the people she has issue with and had a civil discussion, possibly with a view to reaching an amicable conclusion?
Anyway, that’s my two penneth worth…behind you all the way KUR.
Had a strange dream last night.
Graceland was going after Elvis impersonators for copyright infringement.
I woke up laughing so hard I nearly cracked a rib.
This past Friday Dec. 21, 2007 I went to see Ugly Radio Rebellion (featuring Ike Willis) at the Winchester in Cleveland, Ohio on the occasion of Frank’s Birthday. At the beginning of the show Ike mentioned that Gail had called just prior to the show in an attempt to stop it by instilling fear in the venue management. The crowed booed and hissed (at Gail’s efforts), and Ike and URR proceeded to rock out Zappa classics faithfully and brilliantly for two and one half hours. It was wonderful. Gotta hand it to Gail, though. Finding a phone number for some hole-in-the-wall venue on the outskirts of Cleveland at the eleventh hour. Christ, doesn’t she have anything better to do? Does she want THIS to be her life? Threatening musicians who honor her husband’s legacy with tribute gigs, usually done at their own expense (or breaking even)? She can’t possibly think she’s endearing anybody to the ZFT or the “official” Zappa camp with her behavior. When Frank was alive, what did Gail do with her time? I mean, really, what has she ever done? Even when the kids were little, she had help. Is she a professional pest? Christ.
ike DA MAN!!!!!!! go ike!!!!!!! fuck the bozos!!!!!!!!!!!
I’ve been to a few p/o shows in the past– always got to talk to ike, like it’s no big thing, just about the love for the music from someone who WAS THERE when the music was being made, not by some snotty kid who was drinking chocolate milk at the time. But the best was talking to napoleon once after a show, what a charming mofo, he even got me to buy his solo cd, I was glad to do. I can’t believe anyone would want to stop these guys from… PLAYING MUSIC!!!!
gail, get your nickels and dimes and stop embarrasing yourself, it’s getting retarded.
There is no infringement of copyright, Pete, as long as the venue or Ugly Radio Rebellion (featuring Ike Willis) did not charge anyone admission or recorded the performance. Why gz would bother tracking down the phone number of this little hole-in-the-wall establishment reveals hubris of the highest order. You know how the saying goes: hell hath no fury…
Gail, you suck!!! what harm does the friday boot do you? are you losing sales of Zappa music because of it ….NO. Has anyone not purchased a zappa release because they have allready downloaded it from killuglyradio…..NO.
These boots are ALLREADY out there…….. instead of wasting your time shutting killuglyradio down how about releasing what you titles have allready promised us (WHERE THE FUCK IS THE ROXY DVD!!!! give me the fucking tapes i’ll master it myself…..)
Watch your language there, Big AL — ALLREADY is spelled already — otherwise, point well made…
Big Al, nobody said anything about a recording on Friday. So I don’t know if it’s about that, although I surmise that like most shows people may have recorded it. Ike said at the very beginning of the show that Gail had called just minutes earlier. He didn’t say what her motivation was–only that she didn’t want the concert to happen.
I’m sure the gig was recorded, though. Some dude had a mic stand by the soundboard, and another guy had a video camera on a tripod. And yes, urbangraffito, it was a paid event so legally speaking there would be an infringement. But as a fan it makes you wonder. What if the show HAD been called off? There would have been a couple hundred fans walking out of that club, soured by the cancellation and ANGRY with Gail and ZFT in general. I guess what I’m saying is that while this gig did not put money into the ZFT in a direct manner, it certainly didn’t compete with ZFT or any “official” approved shows occurring elsewhere at the time or harm their interests in any immediate sense. The event was goodwill on the occasion of effzee’s birthday. I was sad to hear about Gail crusade. You’d like to think the family is proud to have their father be so revered. Now, if people stood to make big bucks of the event, or by selling illicit recordings of such events, that’s just wrong.
Pete, were actual tickets sold, or was it a cover charge on first come first serve basis like any pub with live music? It’s an important distinction when it comes down to determining copyright infringement (i.e. was URR charging you or was the venue?). As for recording, I believe URR has the right to record it’s own shows and post them for free download by their fans — it’s only when they “profit” from these recordings that they are infringing on copyright, otherwise it’s fair use.
From what I gather — YES it was videotaped — not for sale or profit
Also– It gets better (worse?)–Gail et al called the Restaurant where Ike and URR were scheduled to do a “St Alfonzo’s Pancake Breakfast” show this past sunday (23 dec 2007) — the owner got nervous and cancelled.!!
So–now she is bullying restaurants too. How pathetic is this going to get??
Otherwise– the other shows all went on. Why?? They weren’t breaking the law.
This is so sad, embarrassing and silly to behold. When she could be spending this hard-earned ZPZ-DVD money on…. a couple nice releases a la “Buffalo”. Or maybe an AD in Relix or Guitar World or some other relevant magazine for a change??
I am waiting to hear details from one of the bar -owners — apparently there is also a story based around the Zappa Beer — they donated some beer to one of the shows… Gail found out and freaked about THAT as well. Ah, to be loaded and have extra time for all this.
Yes — the beer company that she approved for using Frank’s image. How ironic is THAT — a guy who was not a big fan of alcohol (he did drink a small amount) , she rents out his album covers for BEER..but freaks when fans online — celebrating THE MUSIC, use the same album cover images – wild, huh!!???
Don’t get me wrong, beer is a great thing, the Zappa beers are actually quite excellent — I love that they have the chance to do this— but anyone else see the irony??
I do man… it’s down to somebody’s neurotic freudian paranoid terror… but u know what? let her be… it’s kind of a game now… a stupid joke, and it should be taken that way. She’s like: It’s my husband’s music and I will only allow my son to play it!!!!
pheeww… alright Ms. Thatcher…
I mean I don’t know… it’s only rock’n’roll but I like it
Sad, embarrassing and silly, indeed. After reading up on gz’s various nefarious narcissistic shenanigans on Ugly Radio Rebellion’s website — http://www.uglyradiorebellion.com/ — I believe a new term will have to be devised that’ll encompass the enormous scope of this growing and evolving absurdity. Irony just doesn’t cut it, Andre. What does one call a massive control freak that needs to micro manage every possible or future utterance of the initials F.Z. to the extent that even one’s own business interests are forgotten?
i’m willing to say, let’s all shell $10 a piece or something ( the buck is cheaper everyday) and have her sign a permit to play the boots, display the photos and all the other stupid details she claims she loses money from… I mean she won’t lose the rights to anything… she’ll just get out of the way of a bunch of nerds that love the music. Let’s face it: it’s getting really hard to take having to hear this condescending shit about what’s “right and wrong” from someone who didn’t play/sing one note ever. Get your money, gail, and go away. The government gets more out of you in taxes than all the nerds listening to FZ bootlegs put together. Oh, did I say FZ? I meant Frank Zappa.
In defense of gail, which i have been reluctant to do:
if you had been relegated to oversee the musical output
of one of the most innovative musical minds of the last 100 years
and you discovered that people were freely distributing shitty sounding recordings of musical events which the aforementinoed musical mind crafted into listenable artifacts and then subsequently rendered listenable night after night in a somewhat altered form from the previous night and night before that which was then captured on a consumer cassette tape recorder only later to be released on a Friday night Boot on one of innumerable websites honoring the musical mind’s music which you have no time to monitor because you actually do have a life, what would you do?
Oh, just go ahead and release any possible variation of my husbands music because no matter how shitty the sound quality, the real fans will always buy the official product.
Until one day enough shitty sounding Zappa recordings have overwhelmed the channels of distribution that everyone believes that ZAPPA sounds like SHIT (and believe me, there are plenty of people who already do) OR would you do everything within your power to ensure that at least some quality control would exist and if the only person with whom you would entrust the concert performances of this musical output was the son of mr. green genes, what would you do?
I mean, come on, you were married to the guy.
In short, if your wife died and someone came to your house and tried on one of her hats wouldn’t you say, “Please take that off, it belonged to my late wife”. Even if you did not say anything it would make you feel uncomfortable.
When Frank died we all got robbed.
Especially Gail.
Let her have what is rightfully hers.
(Although if you license the music for recording and/or pay the performance fees for a concert, i don’t see what the problem is but…)
Jane 23–your charitable attitude towards GZ is admirable, nobody really wants to bash these folks, but your argument about the boots just doesn’t fit reality. You said:
“Until one day enough shitty sounding Zappa recordings have overwhelmed the channels of distribution that everyone believes that ZAPPA sounds like SHIT (and believe me, there are plenty of people who already do) OR would you do everything within your power to ensure that at least some quality control would exist and if the only person with whom you would entrust the concert performances of this musical output was the son of mr. green genes, what would you do?”
Really? Those of us who are listening to Zappa bootleg recordings are generally doing so to learn as much about the music as we can. These are historic artifacts. This is a musical niche most will never “get”, or listen to. Of course the boots are not up to the fidelity of a commercial release. I listen to the commercial releases far more often. Boots will never, ever, “overwhelm the channels of distribution”.
If I were the head of ZPT, I would be engaged and supportive of folks who still show interest in the Composer and his music. I would know what the fans want. If I was going to use lawyers, I would go after the fuckers who torrent commercial releases, or sell bootlegs on ebay. These people are not fans.
The fans want to hear more commercial releases, and distribution methods like Itunes would allow ZPT to release a hell of a lot of new music without ever having to produce a CD again. We would buy this music, a lot. Unfortunately, Joe Travers showed little enthusiasm when I asked him for more music, saying it was up to GZ.
Instead of operating in this new century, understanding the new digital paradigm, ZPT works with an outdated idea of reality, digging a hole for themselves that I hope won’t be too deep to get out of, and sitting too long in that hole means irrelevance.
I can’t imagine that any of Mrs. Zappa’s attempts to stifle those who seek to perpetuate the music and legacy of her late husband will succeed, in the long run. They are mostly quite absurd. To claim, for example, that she owns the name, “Frank Zappa,” or every word he ever spoke to an interviewer, is just insane. It would set quite a precedent for journalists and their publications to have to pay the Zappa Family Trust every time they write “Frank Zappa.” One can only wonder at the machinations of Mrs. Zappa’s brain, as she spends her time and energy obsessively squelching the wonderful, loving, and spontaneous worldwide revival of Frank Zappa’s music and spirit. It is grotesque and shameful.
One point I was attempting to make was:
If Frank stood there on a stage working to produce these historical artifacts, in Gail’s view no one has the right to freely distribute the result of the work which caused the artifacts to exist in the first place.
On a related note:
Egypt is going to pass a law which would copyright the pyramids!!!
They must have some very liberal copyright laws over there.
I wonder if they a using the same attorneys as the ZFT.
All of those post cards he posed for, for all of those years.
Your royaly check is in Billy.
Gail Zappa is her own worst enemy. Her arguments lack the subtlety of being well thought out logically, and often come across as knee jerk reactions at best. FZ bootlegs in the digital age are not a threat to the official releases in any shape or form: their appeal is simply too narrow to a very select group of fans. No one besides the die-hard freak would find them even remotely educationally or historically worthwhile. The idea that these bootlegs are making potential consumers think that FZ’s music sound’s like shit is blatantly false. That one has to actively go and search for them suggests that their dissemination isn’t as wide as Gail or others might believe (or hope). Add to this the near kindergarten level behavior of setting bullies (lawyers) on other folks on the web if they post a small gif image of an artist’s CD on their site. So excuse me if I don’t fall for Gail’s crocodile tears. Bullies need to be confronted and put in their place, otherwise, it only emboldens them further.
I can’t even believe this is an issue. Sad.
“I am waiting to hear details from one of the bar -owners — apparently there is also a story based around the Zappa Beer — they donated some beer to one of the shows… Gail found out and freaked about THAT as well. Ah, to be loaded and have extra time for all this.”
I hadn’t heard that. Tony Magee of Lagunitas Brewing said that an associate took some Kill Ugly Radio beer to the Berkeley ZPZ show and everyone enjoyed it backstage.
But nothing would surprise me at this point.
To paraphrase another late great musician who allows his fans to freely share and trade his bootlegs and other field recordings:
“Well, I went home with Dr. Sharleena
The way I always do
How was I to know
She was with the Belgians, too
I was gambling on the Internet
I took a little risk
Send lawyers, guns and money
Frank, get me out of this”
urbangraffito says:
December 26th, 2007 at 12:30 am
“…….their appeal is simply too narrow to a very select group of fans. No one besides the die-hard freak would find them even remotely educationally or historically worthwhile……”
This seems to be a good reason for her to protect copyrighted material. I don’t think they(ZFT) are making huge fortunes at this. Certainly logic and/or common sense would leave one to believe that websights, blogs and cover bands are spreading the word, but as a business owner trying to keep things afloat in a struggling market, I tend to ere on the side of the copyright holders point of view.
I enjoy many of the bands who have paid tribute to FZ and occasionally browse fan based outlets to gain useful/helpful/educational insight but ultimately it’s the copyright holders discretion to put the breaks on what may or may not be representive of the artist/inventer/writer/composer.
“This seems to be a good reason for her to protect copyrighted material,” says Brother of Invention. Why? Because of the narrow appeal of bootlegs? Or the dwindling interest in FZ because of her/their own backward business practices? Brother, threatening the very fan base you depend upon for your livelihood isn’t just crazy, it’s outright psychotic. Just like it’s quite outrageous to think that any one person can determine what is representive of the artist/inventer/writer/composer, even if that person is the copyright holder (even their rights have limitations in a free world).
Yes– “Psychotic” starts to get into the zone.
And– OF COURSE she owns the copyright. We’re starting to..repeat ourselves with that. I can’t speak for anyone else but we should consider:
-Have you heard of many – or any – copyright holders that DEMAND PERMISSION for performance of said material?? And is so arbitrary, random and sometimes uncommunicative about granting that permission?
-Have you heard of many – or any- copyright holders that are completely INSISTENT on this “Composers Intent” idea, bringing it up in almost every lawsuit?
See – such a copyright holder is hard to be taken seriously — when THE COMPOSER (Zappa) …has simply made a large part of his career – (and I love this about him) – by THWARTING COMPOSER INTENT!!! Irreverence!!! It’s a Zappa trademark…and..now we can’t celebrate it..?
Please — think about that — that’s the core of my argument, and I’d love to sit in a room with Gail Zappa and ask her these questions:
-Was specific permission granted by Igor’s estate for Frank to IGNORE THE COMPOSER’S INTENT with all the Stravinsky bits he uses on “Absolutely Free” and elsewhere?? Would Gail be OK if I released a song called “Frank’s Boogie”?
-Was specific permission granted by the Holst estate for Frank to IGNORE THE COMPOSER’S INTENT with the bits of “The Planets” he uses on “Absolutely Free”??
-Was specific permission granted by Herbie Hancock for Frank to IGNORE THE COMPOSER’S INTENT with the riff for CHAMELEON that he uses UNCREDITED on “Greggery Peccary”?? Should Gail be sued as the copyright holder of uncredited, non-composer intent music?
-Was specific permission granted by Culture Club, Devo, Scorpions etc -for Frank to IGNORE THE COMPOSER’S INTENT with all the “cliche 80s riffs” he used in the 84 version of “Tinseltown Rebellion”??
-I know the composer was credited SOMETIMES — but was specific permission granted for Frank to IGNORE THE COMPOSER’S INTENT everytime he used “Louie Louie” — and changed the tempo and words??
-Again –Was specific permission granted for Frank to IGNORE THE COMPOSER’S INTENT when he used the unique rhythmic signature of Stravinsky’s “Rite Of Spring” under the words “Some kind of….wwwoo–hooo-hhoo– haaa–haa – Ritual Sacrifice..” in “Ship Arriving Too Late”??. I LOVE that quote –it’s so fucking funny ‘cos he is singing about ‘sacrifice’ — which is what the ‘Rite Of Spring’ is about. Sheer Genius!!! and — we should be ..following his lead!!
-Was specific permission granted by the composer of the weird Mexican movie soundtrack music -for Frank to IGNORE THE COMPOSER’S INTENT when he used melodies from a cheezy movie for the horn lines in “Debra Kadabra”??
-Was specific permission granted by the estate of Hart and Rodgers for Frank to IGNORE THE COMPOSER’S INTENT when he used the melody from “Isn’t It Romantic” in Punky’s Whips??? Was it even credited to them?? Sounds actionable if not.
-Was specific permission granted by all relevant composers for Frank to IGNORE THE COMPOSERS’ INTENT with all the hilarious musical quotes in “Rhymin’ Man”?? I don’t even remember seeing CREDIT for those little licks– do you??
-Was specific permission granted by THE SEEDS for Frank to IGNORE THE COMPOSER’S INTENT when he used the rhythm, melody and some of the words of their late 60s hit “Pushing Too Hard” on Joe’s Garage?? (BTW- go to youtube and check out the video for that song — it’s a riot!!! One of the earliest cheesy ‘concept’ videos for sure!! The Seeds are playing that song in an uptight Leave It to Beaver type house, and the teen girl is dancing and thinking naughty thoughts, right in front of an aghast Dad and Mom! And – the chorus — right where Frank got the “pushing too haaaaaard” Cy Borg stuff from.
You see where I’m going here. And we could go ALL day – if you’re a Zappa fan, and I’m sure you are if you’re reading this protracted crap — then you know his catalog is RIDDLED with these quotes — AND I LOVE THAT!!! It’s a big part of the FUN of Zappa — he is a master deconstructionist!!! Go put an album on –there are very few FZ releases without some cool, sly, sometimes downright Warholian reference to pop-art, pop-culture (Suzy Quatro!! In 1973!! Brilliant) or musical riff. And we LOVE THAT ABOUT HIM!!
To me –and seemingly many other people – this whole discussion is about the clear hypocrisy of-living in a house and living on royalties…bought and generated by..the same thing you don’t want others to do!!! How fucking ridiculous can you get??? Can you even get your mind around how crazy that is??!!!
I’m NOT talking about ‘crediting the composer’ which is what Gail and her defenders say at this point — I’m talking – about — DID FRANK GET PERMISSION to ‘alter’ this music — composed by others. I’m talking about all the times he DIDN’T credit people. I will never shut up about that — since it is THE CENTRAL PART OF GAIL’s ARGUMENT.
Why shouldn’t she live up to HER OWN STANDARDS? Sure – Frank many times credits the composer — He did so for the Beatles stuff, Hendrix, Cream, for “Ring of Fire”, Irish eyes” etc etc. But he also neglected to credit people some of the time.
Will Gail donate all profits from said songs back to ASCAP or to some educational fund?? Yeah. Sure she will.
I’ll cease all attacks on her tomorrow fucking MORNING if she can publicly show us documentation of permission for each and every one of these — and other examples we can all show. But – she can’t…and she won’t and it even ain’t.
Oh –and as far as the Zappa-beer thing — With all due respect bro- the example you gave only FURTHER emphasizes what many of us are saying. OF COURSE backstage at a ZPZ show they are gonna drink the beer and allow it!! She gave permission.!!! So– in THEIR sanctioned setting — of course the beer is welcomed! Just — NOWHERE ELSE she doesn’t approve of!!
Her beef in this particular instance is — now the beer is tacitly “endorsing” an illegal performance -that features her Nemesis – Ike Willis. (you know– the guy she called ANYWAY this July when the ZPZ was panicking about their lead-singer situation.) Gail spoke to Ike for about 4 minutes (July 2007) — then HUNG UP on him when he refused, amongst other demands, to recant all his comments about Frank asking him to play the music, etc.
I was told that the beer was mentioned ON the threatening letter the club (21 Dec show) was presented with. I am seeking evidence on this– but I trust the source. Otherwise- as always – I will stand by and backup EVERYTHING I say here, and at zappa.com forum, all the way back to the beginning.
Thanks for all your support and kind letters. Many of you understand and realize that I am speaking out for the LOVE OF ZAPPA..and to actually maintain the kind of artistic methods he used himself — to take pieces of pop culture, pop art, and OTHER PEOPLE’S MUSIC and create some very original art that we all love.
Some of you disagree — that’s cool. I firmly believe that is partially because you just haven’t heard and seen the evidence of what goes on behind the scenes with the ZFU’s business dealings. The facts are the facts. The facts are backed by the paper-trail we are putting up right here on killuglyradio.com
I play music and tour with several projects, work in the music biz tour managing, teching and booking, and occasionally get out and play Zappa’s music. At the end of the day-It’s a small part of what I do.
But having been singled out by Gail Zappa and her lawyers for at least a decade now –I feel I have the right to respond to her charges and to provide defensive information freely to my friends involved other bands, sites, festivals etc who face similar, unfounded attacks.
Yep. I’m a sarcastic, shit stirring free thinker, fighting for what I, and a lot of people, feel is right for the modern day composer and artist – To protect their copyrights, and to credit and pay them/their heirs when required by law.
One of my biggest influences in that kind of thinking since 1981, has been Frank Zappa.
But we demand AT LEAST the same artistic freedom that Frank Zappa had. The right to mutilate, deconstruct, and create different versions of anyone’s music we want to, within copyright and the “fair use” laws clearly written into US Law, and under other name in other countries like Germany, etc.
Andre C. is brilliant. He just wrote the most powerful summation of everything we have all been ranting on about here. I have just read and re-read his words and am still overwhelmed by his water-tight argument. The hypocrisy here is horrible. Gail is a bitter, messed-up person who obviously lives in an alternate reality that one has to assume even Frank would marvel at. I like the guts of the recent posters who have professed a huge credo about playing and engaging with the music despite all threats and intimidation. I know in my heart (emotionally) and my mind (logically) that Frank spent his entire life breaking down every boundary that his widow is spending her life erecting between his work and everything/everyone who approaches it. It is truly sad, pathetic, devisive and more close-minded than anything the Washington Wives of the PMRC could EVER have thought up.
The only souls on earth keeping the work and art of Frank alive are the FANS.
What gets me crazy, is that Frank spent his entire career downplaying the ‘art’ angle. That everything he did was entertainment, nothing more and nothing less. And now we are told
that Frank’s music is High Art. Absolutely nothing short of High Art.
There always seems to be a huge difference between those that create and those that preserve. Preservationists are SMALL MINDED FOLKS, and creators are OPEN MINDED FOLKS. Most definitely Frank recorded and preserved just about everything he could, but one always got the impression that it was done for future idea recycling as opposed to museum-like embalming. I completely agree with beepee: by constantly treating “the Vault” like it is the magic El Dorado of Sacred Relics, it disturbingly clouds the family’s mind concerning The Man and His Music. Frank worked tirelessly all his life to erase the boundaries between High and Low Art, yet as can be expected, the Works are now treated like an ancient relic that only the INITIATED can DARE look upon without instantly turning into stone.
And do I need mention who MEDUSA is…….?
This is terrible. Really terrible. And hypocritical too. GZ in Ben Watson’s ‘Negative Dialectics’ referred to the tape swapping community without any hint of “we’ll get the lawyers” as “the loop”. No money was exchanged as regards this site so where is the problem?
Speaking of ugly. Does anybody else find the big ‘R’ in the circle next to the name Zappa on the Ensemble Modern’s ‘Greggary Peccary’ CD ugly as fuck?
Hello Entitlement,
what I have read so far shows that you guys all listen to zappa but don’t really haven’t understood what Zappa is saying in his lyrics in his music— Please don’t write to me and ask me to explain what you have missed—I want answer that—
Now I hear from boycott to actually insulting Gail or Dweezel going on a level so personal as to down grade Dweezel performance with ZPZ ,and even bringing in the ZTF spending habits and so on —What we should consider is that we could have asked for permission a long time ago to use Zappas property! And this is what a lot of this is about us not considering them !!!!!This is Zappas Property and it belongs to the people you are insulting and if they stick Zappas Property up there ( ! ) its there’s and not ours—
Even we are some what connected to Zappa we can only imagine what they do who they are we don’t really know —
Gail is a business women a mother of 4 with grand kids and she’s got some years on her back — All she is ever listening to is the bitching and complaints from you guys oh Roxy DVD comes to late — There must be more in the vault— Dweezel isn’t releasing the songs we want on the next cd—and on and on — The when the new CD comes out there comes the tearing apart what they did and should have done —
I hope she gets a stone mason closes the vault and waits for a better future generation to be worthy of Franks Music then all you wanna be Zappa fans on a rag.
And just so you know, even its a non profit corp the higghest payed director from a non profit corp in the US is making arroud 800 k plus bonus package a year and hes got more directors sitting next to him at the table OH WE ARE SO NONPROFIT:(
The only thing i can hold against Gail is she should have had a lot a more children the girls are very pretty :)HMMMMM
juergen
gadoodledee – zappa instructed gail to cash out and leave the music biz behind once he was dead. she’s ignored his advice and proved to be inept on a number of different levels when handling her late husband’s oh-so-precious ‘property’.
and i’m supposed to keep my mouth shut just ’cause you wanna have a threesome with moon unit and diva? FUCK THAT. fuck the zft. and fuck you.
“The sarcastic, shit stirring, free thinker refuses to die!”
Sorry Juergen, but I´ve never read such a complete bullshit for a while. “… closes the vault and waits for a better future generation to be worthy of Franks Music then all you wanna be Zappa fans on a rag…” Better future generation? Worthy? I didn´t know, that it was possible to pile up dog shit that high and make it write on a keyboard, Juergen! Screw you!
zft lackey (noun) 1. servile follower; 2. uniformed male servant; 3. gadoodledee
gail has grand kids?
Did one of the Zappa kids get knocked up? Only at Disney, you say!
Thomas Jung of the great Sheik Yerbouti declares they will carry on, despite the barking pumpkin (if my translation is good…)
http://unverschaemtheit.sheikyerbouti.de/2008/01/02/sheik-yerbouti-in-the-year-of-the-plague/
maybe it was selma blair who had the bun in the oven.
or that girl with the eyeglasses, umm, lisa loeb.
Fuck Gail, fuck FZT.
As far as I’m concerned, Gail can go and jump off a high building.
[quote comment=”16934″]
-Was specific permission granted by Igor’s estate for Frank to IGNORE THE COMPOSER’S INTENT with all the Stravinsky bits he uses on “Absolutely Free” and elsewhere??[/quote]
Estate nothing. Stravinsky was still alive when Absolutely Free was released.
this shit appears to me a bit like the trouble with the fuckin’ Warner label Frank Zappa once had to handle… but in fact it’s even worse!
musica libre! and freedom to all Zappa-material and -adoration on this wasted planet!
viva!
sigmundo
Gail,
You don’t know what you’re doing. Frank’s fan$ will not want to give you any more money as long as you keep up these shenanigans. (tip: read up on the riaa lawsuits)
I’d only perused KUR a few times in the past. This is all news to me; But, I’ve had a look at a few other sites after having come across this and it does appear to be rather wide-spread indeed. ZFT will not see one more dime from me. Should I eventually decide to round out my collection (Which is already nearly complete), I’ll buy from a second-hand dealer on Amazon. Thanks for making the cease and desist order available for inspection.
does this mean that the Zappa name is copyright and that if you happen to be a Zappa not related to this particular Zappa you have to ask permission to use it ???? Also does Mrs Zappa claim to hold the copyright on all photos ever taken of FZ so that no one else can use them ? surely the copyright belongs to the person who took the photo and she should ask them if she can use that photo not the other way round, this action would seem to be rather specific against certain members of the zappa fraternity ie the bigger fish that are playing the zappa stuff such as Andre, a chap i have never met but feel that we are good friends just from reading his posts, and as i keep saying on the |FZ| site when is he bringing P/O to the UK.
Heres a thought maybe the ZFT are a bit jelous of sites like KUR cos they have more info on FZ than they have and also the bands play better and more often than ZPZ have. I went to see ZPZ in Manchester UK in 2006 and incredible they were too, but if it were not for bands like the Muffin Men to go and see every so often the UK would be a rather Zappa barren place and the number of younger faces that i have seen at their gigs who go just to see what its all about is amazing! several times i have overheard some say that they are going to check out this Zappa person and his cds.
[quote comment=”17541″]
Heres a thought maybe the ZFT are a bit jelous of sites like KUR cos they have more info on FZ than they have and also the bands play better and more often than ZPZ have. I went to see ZPZ in Manchester UK in 2006 and incredible they were too, but if it were not for bands like the Muffin Men to go and see every so often the UK would be a rather Zappa barren place and the number of younger faces that i have seen at their gigs who go just to see what its all about is amazing! several times i have overheard some say that they are going to check out this Zappa person and his cds.[/quote]
Trying to figure out the motives of Goil Zuppata and her horde of lawyers is enough to give a freak a migraine…
Certainly, they are putting the cart before the horse in their efforts to silence everyone but themselves through the bully pulpit of the courts…
As I reach for those aspirin to cure that pain they’ve caused, I say to myself, fuck this shit, toss the tablets away, and slip the nearest FZ CD (already bought and paid for) into the stereo…
Ahhhhhhhhh….much better!
[quote comment=”17541″]Heres a thought maybe the ZFT are a bit jealous of sites like KUR cos they have more info on FZ than they have[/quote]
You may well be on to something there. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: if the official site sucks ass (which it does, in my humble opinion), then your plan of action should not be to shut down those who do better — your plan of action should then be to make your own (official) site worth while visiting. At present, KUR is being punished for offering more information and a better community, compared to what the official site can procure. It’s that old “fight the symptoms” vs. “cure the illness itself” syndrome.
[quote comment=”17543″][quote comment=”17541″]Heres a thought maybe the ZFT are a bit jealous of sites like KUR cos they have more info on FZ than they have[/quote]
You may well be on to something there. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: if the official site sucks ass (which it does, in my humble opinion), then your plan of action should not be to shut down those who do better — your plan of action should then be to make your own (official) site worth while visiting. At present, KUR is being punished for offering more information and a better community, compared to what the official site can procure. It’s that old “fight the symptoms” vs. “cure the illness itself” syndrome.[/quote]
Surely the *official site* has the finances and the resources to produce something far better than they currently offer. This makes me ponder the question of what their real motives are behind all of their litigation. Or perhaps, there are no motives behind it at all, Barry. Just one neurotic person’s sick need for attention at all costs (which, in the final analysis, seems the most likely).
I had a tiny, tiny (just this big) run-in with Gail a couple of years ago and quickly came to the conclusion that she really does qualify as a Grade A shit. (I won’t go into details but briefly, she asked me to do her a favour – one which cost me money I could ill-afford at the time; as soon as I had done it, her attitude became all f*** off)
This latest action has made me vow that I’ll NEVER by another Zappa product from any source that means any of my money will get back to her. If I can get it 2nd hand, fine – if I can’t, I’ll live without it.
Oh dear…this is all so depressing. I lost interest in fz in 1986. Loved him so much prior to this date. What I have noticed since the late eighties and to the present time is a vacuity in the UK media on any interest in FZ topics. I always scan the various cultural papers and tv progs, and now I know why he is ignored. The whole FZ thing is as dead as he is. G Zappa and family have fucked up ig time. His heratige should have een left to Saachi and Saachi. His family are too isolated and ill equiped to deal with his legacy. Enjoy the official releases, ignore anything that comes out of the zft.
Imagine (pardon the pun) if j. lennons wife sat on “roxy tapes”. they will all sound shite anyway. Move on, Frank is dead and so is his music……until the future.
sorry for the spelling mistakes and also my laptop refuses to type out c’s, the next letter down. I saw Frank at Kneworth supporting the Tues(c,s not working again, think of white punks on dope) and at the Glasgow apollo and Edinurgh playhouse and he was faulous. I made a secret recording at glasgow when he did , “dead girls of london”. All lost now. ut I think this prolem you all have with his troule and strife (wife, madonna talk) could stem from her attitude towards punk (music).
I elieve she was very negative aout punk in the 1970’s in the uk so she is not aout to let you guys get all free and easy with franks philosophy! She is doing a prince, and wot a little tosser he is! Has not made a decent alum for 20 years.
Chris, wot did you do for gail? I am fascinated! Did u give her one?
You are a mug Chris. Did it cost you money? Have a wank instead, as Frank might have said!
Or did you just trim her hedge?
PS. I have negatives of FZ at kneworth and Glasgow ut now feel fear that I may suffer a heavy jelly response from the zft. I will destroy them immedietely. A girl whom I was with at the glasgow concert got to speak to him ackstage. He just stared her out for 20 minutes. With lust I think!
Um, you americans are a really slow. no response?
[quote comment=”17739″]PS. I have negatives of FZ at kneworth and Glasgow ut now feel fear that I may suffer a heavy jelly response from the zft. I will destroy them immedietely. A girl whom I was with at the glasgow concert got to speak to him ackstage. He just stared her out for 20 minutes. With lust I think![/quote]
Mup!
Mup?
[quote comment=”17758″]Mup?[/quote]
You don’t know the story of ‘Mup’? For shame…
Tell me a*out it. and while im here, you are all moaning aout the zappa vaults and getting it released, what I would LOVE to hear is the first recorded version of Trout mask replica. As Frank mentioned in his *ook, everyone in the magic *and recorded individually in seperate rooms. As F said,” I thought it sounded teriffic”. Love to hear zpz covering that al*um.
Hey Ur*an, tell me aout this Mup!
nc hd tpwrtr frm ssr wth n vwls. pls hlp. snd yr vwls t strn rpns.
zft scks.
frnk rcks dd r lve.
[quote comment=”17762″]Hey Ur*an, tell me aout this Mup![/quote]
Mike Keneally tells the tale that while he was in FZ’s Best Band in Birmingham, England, Scott Thunes’ friend from XTC, Dave Gregory (guitarist & keyboardist & big Zappa fan) wanted to meet Zappa and had even brought Zappa albums for him to sign. Thunes was afraid that Frank wouldn’t show his friend from XTC the respect he deserved (because they were such a successful band at that time) so he kept putting off introducing them. But eventually it became unavoidable that they would meet, so Thunes introduced his friend. “Frank, this is Dave Gregory from XTC.” All Frank said was “Mup” and walked out of the building.
[quote comment=”17761″]Tell me a*out it. and while im here, you are all moaning aout the zappa vaults and getting it released, what I would LOVE to hear is the first recorded version of Trout mask replica. As Frank mentioned in his *ook, everyone in the magic *and recorded individually in seperate rooms. As F said,” I thought it sounded teriffic”. Love to hear zpz covering that al*um.[/quote]
Of course Trout Mask Replica sounded terrific. The Magic Band rehearsed the entire album in a house for six months before going into the studio to record it. They knew those tracks forward and backward, inside and out. Could ZpZ cover that album? Hardly. I mean, they couldn’t get through a two hour show without several obvious screw-ups (and that’s FZ’s material — just imagine them attempted some Beefheart classics: I chuckle just thinking about it).
Too right Freon. I might *e out of order here,*ut New York did not deserve the 9/11 attack. The west coast did, get rid of that screaming tart called Gwen Stefani (stiff fanny?).
Dear Ur*an, Frank could e a real cunt yeah? XTC were an ok group. God knows how he would feel eing introduced to j. lydon. Charles shaar murray did say that fz was frightened of punk , dislodged his routine of the o*vious targets.
How can anyone take this dwitzil zappa stuff serously. I just got an earful of his “work” and he sounds like julian lennon on largactol.
pass.
Hey Gail, get a hobby you fat shlub.
What strikes me as the most depressing aspect of post 94 zappa releases is the cover “art”. It looks so sterile and unimaginative. It does nothing for the promotion or link with the artists work. It just looks very sad…Frank would have done much more with it (assuming he was still alive).
I figured in the event that I get married and die, and since I make music right now if it starts to sell, to prevent my wife from feeling the obligation of filing lawsuits on anybody whos sites carry my name I decided to star (*) out the middle of my name. Maybe you guys should do the same (well you kinda already have). I wonder if Gail could possibly get litigious over the use of the initials FZ… what if I too decided to have facial hair like Frank, would that mean I have to pay royalties?
The shitty thing is that Frank Zappa didnt mind lawyering up and going into court for a good old fight, so its kind of scary to think he might have done the same nit picky bullshit that Gail is doing… all problems with Gail aside, and Im the first person to get upset to hear everybody just feeling entitled to download and pillage the catalogs of any performer and artist, but this site is nothing like that. Just because Gail, at a snails pace, wants to release every tiny little peice of sound Frank ever made, at whatever absorbant prices she wants to put on it, dosnt make the boots up here wrong. What youve done is a great thing, Ive gotten to hear hours and hours of footage I NEVER would have heard, it was done far before I was born and I have got to in some way listen to it.
I would just like to say thank you for all youve done, youve done great and I dont feel have done anything wrong. And fuck Gail and her slow ass. Whatever happened to “If we cant be free at least well be cheap” and “Youve gotta feed the beast”.
[quote comment=”18159″]I figured in the event that I get married and die, and since I make music right now if it starts to sell, to prevent my wife from feeling the obligation of filing lawsuits on anybody whos sites carry my name I decided to star (*) out the middle of my name. Maybe you guys should do the same (well you kinda already have). I wonder if Gail could possibly get litigious over the use of the initials FZ… what if I too decided to have facial hair like Frank, would that mean I have to pay royalties?
The shitty thing is that Frank Zappa didnt mind lawyering up and going into court for a good old fight, so its kind of scary to think he might have done the same nit picky bullshit that Gail is doing… all problems with Gail aside, and Im the first person to get upset to hear everybody just feeling entitled to download and pillage the catalogs of any performer and artist, but this site is nothing like that. Just because Gail, at a snails pace, wants to release every tiny little peice of sound Frank ever made, at whatever absorbant prices she wants to put on it, dosnt make the boots up here wrong. What youve done is a great thing, Ive gotten to hear hours and hours of footage I NEVER would have heard, it was done far before I was born and I have got to in some way listen to it.
I would just like to say thank you for all youve done, youve done great and I dont feel have done anything wrong. And fuck Gail and her slow ass. Whatever happened to “If we cant be free at least well be cheap” and “Youve gotta feed the beast”.[/quote]
You just explained for the typical citizen of the nation of miserable fucks why I choose to bring on the bomb. Thank you.
I was one of those 10 daily visitors way back when. I used to post frequently on the forums. Life got busy and I stopped posting, but I kept listening. Its been quite some time since I’ve visited KUR. I’m quite surprised to back to this!
So Gail has been sending C&D letters to more than just KUR? This is really quite insulting, to both fans and Frank. I’m at a loss for words, I only hope they see the error in their ways and realize what all of these fans and sites have done for Frank’s music and memory. Good luck, Barry.
NPR
Addendum: $40 USD for a fucking t-shirt? Really, ZFT?
“If we can’t be free, at least we can try really hard to make a buck by reprinting shirts Frank wore.”
To the ZFT:
هل لديك ولدى المØامين تكون جاÙÙ‡ Øب غاضب الإبل
Fuck the Trust.
gobsmacked – ’tis strange and haveth not easy comprehension…..
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I recommend…
don’t go to Zappa plays Zappa tour !
They don’t deserve our attention any more.
By the way,,,
Its so many bootlegs of Zappa and is really strange the family are making this bootlegs official now.
I have reasons to believe all this have been a game well organized by the family…. trust who ?
My dad had a pretty strange agreement with Zappa regarding the shows that he captured from 74 to 82, mainly that he could be a party to a copy of the capture, provided that he never made any money off of them. This was an agreement that Frank made with very few people. If that bitch, Gail, keeps alienating the fans fuck Frank’s vault, we’re storming my old man’s basement and bootlegging the shit out of what he has.